Bargains

[Beef Oven!]

I let you have foggy go!

After you, old man!

[Mark Meldon]

I was lucky enough to be given the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set of the Sacred Cantatas for Christmas; I have the 60-CD box set version. This includes two booklets of notes, but not texts or translations - no particular hardship as they are readily available on the web at, for example www.bach-cantatas.com. Whilst I have yet to listen to all of the recordings, I have to say they are generally very good to excellent, as long as you are happy to accept the odd wobble from the boys (no female voices). The cost of my set was £110 at the time from Presto.

This is, undeniably, one of the great, indeed monumental, recording projects, like Scott Ross's Scarlatti Sonatas, Karajan's 1962 Beethoven Symphonies, Cortot's Chopin, etc, etc. - a sort of a cornerstone Western Musical Culture, IMHO.

I'm very happy to have the set and, although I don't know the highly-regarded Suzuki set, the few recordings I have heard from JEG seem very slightly arch to me. Herewegghe is very much worth hearing and Ton Koopman's (very expensive) set is worth sampling, too.

As Clive James said, "...getting into Bach's Cantata's is a great aesthetic experience"!

I hope that helps.

[MickyD]

I too already have the Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set (though an earlier version with all texts and translations - the only problem is it takes up a huge space on the shelf). I agree with all you say, Mark...and I must confess to liking the warts and all performances of the boys and instrumentalists.

But what on earth is that bizarre cover drawing on the Archiv/Gardiner set? I'm afraid that alone would prevent me from buying it!

[MLF]

Micky, Mark and Dave - I am enormously grateful for your good and thoughtful advice.

I do think I would listen to a complete set.

I think I will get the Archiv choral set for starters with a view to buying the Rilling/Hannsler complete set in due course. I think these would compliment each other well.

I was put off the Brilliant Classics Set by various criticisms of the cantatas. The Gardiner complete cantatas is the same price as the Rilling complete works - and I have no objection to modern instruments, which puts Rilling in front for me. The Suzuki and Koopman sets exceed my budget!

This is all much to the chagrin of my wife, who is grumping about shelf space! (The Warner USB set looks good and is certainly compact - but will we still be using USB sticks in 10 years' time?)

Many thanks indeed.

[gurnemanz]

I was put off the Brilliant Classics Set by various criticisms of the cantatas. The Gardiner complete cantatas is the same price as the Rilling complete works - and I have no objection to modern instruments, which puts Rilling in front for me. The Suzuki and Koopman sets exceed my budget!

This is all much to the chagrin of my wife, who is grumping about shelf space! (The Warner USB set looks good and is certainly compact - but will we still be using USB sticks in 10 years' time?)

Many thanks indeed.

I did get the Leusink set on Brilliant which was very cheap and I have mostly enjoyed them. There are rough edges - they were working under pressure, as indeed Bach was. There is a 200 page booklet with full texts (German only) and decent notes.

I got the Teldec USB and slapped the whole lot onto my laptop (for me the stick itself is really just a backup). Many classic performances but I find it rather inconveniently arranged with 6000 files in 1000 folders, where each work, however short, has its own folder. Still working through and it is good to hear boys in some of the solos.

[Dave2002]

... I have no objection to modern instruments, which puts Rilling in front for me. The Suzuki and Koopman sets exceed my budget!

I'm surprised the instruments are of concern - personally I tend to prefer the more "authentic" instruments, but in the cantatas it's mostly the style and quality of the singing which matters isn't it?

[Mark Meldon]

Going back (Bach?) to the Teldec Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set, I'd say that the physical 60-CD set is excellent value at just over £100. The card box is attractive and the individual CDs come in bronze-coloured card slipcases. There is much less compression on the CDs, of course.

This monumental set was recorded over a long period (1971-1989), but the sound quality is fine. What I really enjoy about this set is the sense of spontaneity the performances bring. I also like the tenor, Kurt Equiluz, who appears throughout the set. The bits and pieces I have heard of the Suzuki series is very polished and a bit studio-bound, and Jeggy is, well, Jeggy!

Don't dismiss the Leusink set on Brilliant Classics; a few rough patches aside, it's very good, IMHO and will satisfy all but the very fussiest.

The Teldec set, in it's pioneering historically-informed practice, really makes me feel that I could be in Leipzig, and www.base.com are selling the set at a competitive £119.59 including postage, so I see.

[verismissimo]

I did get the Leusink set on Brilliant which was very cheap and I have mostly enjoyed them. There are rough edges - they were working under pressure, as indeed Bach was...

That's exactly the reason I like them so much. Can't imagine that Bach's own performances had great polish, but I bet they were lively... as are the Leusinks.

[MLF]

It is not that the instruments are of particular concern. Quite the reverse - I am relaxed on the question. My point was I would rather spend £160 on the Rilling complete set rather than on the JEG Complete Cantatas. By getting the Rilling and the Archiv JEG set, I can have the best of both worlds.

[MLF]

That's exactly the reason I like them so much. Can't imagine that Bach's own performances had great polish, but I bet they were lively... as are the Leusinks.

Good point well made! Oh dear, this is not getting easier.

[Dave2002]

That's exactly the reason I like them so much. Can't imagine that Bach's own performances had great polish, but I bet they were lively... as are the Leusinks.

It's difficult to know what performances might have been like in Bach's churches. Do we have any documentary comments from contemporaries? Bach was actually in charge of the music in two churches in Leipzig, and I was recently surprised at the size of them, particularly Thomaskirche. It is possible tha there were enough funds to pay good musicians, and the sound even back then could have been very good. Bach may also have been a good music director, in which case performances could have been excellent. On the other hand there may have been a lot of problems, and tphe results may have been barely acceptable. I personally have no insight into this, though others may have researched musical practices in Bach's time, and considered whether any of his performances would compare welll with modern ones, either on modern instruments or otherwise.

[hafod]

Going back (Bach?) to the Teldec Harnoncourt/Leonhardt set, I'd say that the physical 60-CD set is excellent value at just over £100. The card box is attractive and the individual CDs come in bronze-coloured card slipcases. There is much less compression on the CDs, of course.

This monumental set was recorded over a long period (1971-1989), but the sound quality is fine. What I really enjoy about this set is the sense of spontaneity the performances bring. I also like the tenor, Kurt Equiluz, who appears throughout the set. The bits and pieces I have heard of the Suzuki series is very polished and a bit studio-bound, and Jeggy is, well, Jeggy!

Don't dismiss the Leusink set on Brilliant Classics; a few rough patches aside, it's very good, IMHO and will satisfy all but the very fussiest.

The Teldec set, in it's pioneering historically-informed practice, really makes me feel that I could be in Leipzig, and www.base.com are selling the set at a competitive £119.59 including postage, so I see.

Rilling's set on Haenssler costs almost half that (£63) - where does this sit in the pecking order?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Complete-Cantatas-Special-Edition/dp/B004K583KA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=LQHDDV9CIDRU&coliid=I2HDUO1ZQFBBBW

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Good point well made! Oh dear, this is not getting easier.

No, it doesn't does it? Nobody is going to embark on a complete Bach Cantata cycle who isn't totally commited to the Music, and the Music itself is so glorious that all the sets have their great points and weaknesses - but these will be mostly a matter of choice and personal taste. My own collection of the Cantatas is put together from various sets and Verismissimo's & Gurnemanz's appreciative comments about the (very cheap) Leusink set tally with my own ... although the choir does rather strip the enamel off your teeth in the higher notes and at any dynamic above mf - Ruth Holten and Marjon Strijk are very good, the other soloists have more "homely" voices (which I prefer to the "sophisticated", "tremendous artistry" of some other versions) and the instrumental ensemble is top-class. Leusink chooses good tempi and lets the Music speak eloquently for itself - and the recorded sound is very good. The Harnoncourt/Leonhardt pioneering set would be my own choice for a complete cycle, though - the male choir is better than the Holland Boys', and the "soprano" solos are given to boys (with variable results, but when they get it right, you really can hear how superbly Bach wrote for them) and Paul Esswood is unmatched in the Alto solos. The odd movement here and there which suggests that the influence of older performing traditions was still strong, but generally tempi are very good and the recording hasn't aged badly.

Suzuki (like Herreweghe in his recordings) is intensely beautiful - so much so that I find it quite difficult to hear more than one at a time (which isn't really a criticism: these works fare better one at a time, they each have so much to say). Gardiner's Live cycle has greater sense of occasion than the earlier DG studio recordings which have always sounded rather aggressive and one-dimensional to me; adult solos and choir (which is bigger even that the maximum number of singers that might be inferred from Bach's own comments - but this is true of Leusink and Harnoncourt, too). The Rilling is the only complete Cantata set to use modern instruments, which will be self-recommending for many listeners but they convince me that Bach sounds better played by the range of colours offered by the instruments of Bach's time (and the care Bach devoted to the instrumental writing makes this a very important consideration).

I know very few of the Koopman recordings; I don't find them particularly persuasive, even if there's nothing at all objectional about them. Kuijken's ongoing cycle is the only complete cycle so far to offer one voice per part performances, and he is one of my favourite artists - if money is no problem, this is the set I'd go for.

Whichever set you go for, you will acquire some of the greatest Music ever imagined, and there will be some individual performances that will strike you as less persuasive than others. But you won't regret your choice.

[hafod]

It's difficult to know what performances might have been like in Bach's churches. Do we have any documentary comments from contemporaries? Bach was actually in charge of the music in two churches in Leipzig, and I was recently surprised at the size of them, particularly Thomaskirche. It is possible tha there were enough funds to pay good musicians, and the sound even back then could have been very good. Bach may also have been a good music director, in which case performances could have been excellent. On the other hand there may have been a lot of problems, and tphe results may have been barely acceptable. I personally have no insight into this, though others may have researched musical practices in Bach's time, and considered whether any of his performances would compare welll with modern ones, either on modern instruments or otherwise.

Dave2002: JEG's 'Music in the Castle of Heaven' has a lot to say on this (as well as a legion of other things) and is well worth a read. Although I am only one third of the way through this well written book, I can firmly recommend it.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's difficult to know what performances might have been like in Bach's churches. Do we have any documentary comments from contemporaries? Bach was actually in charge of the music in two churches in Leipzig, and I was recently surprised at the size of them, particularly Thomaskirche. It is possible tha there were enough funds to pay good musicians, and the sound even back then could have been very good. Bach may also have been a good music director, in which case performances could have been excellent. On the other hand there may have been a lot of problems, and tphe results may have been barely acceptable. I personally have no insight into this, though others may have researched musical practices in Bach's time, and considered whether any of his performances would compare welll with modern ones, either on modern instruments or otherwise.

Bach was in fact in charge of Music for four churches in Leipzig (IIRC - it might've been five), although the requirements in all were different (in at least one, the boys were conducted by a Prefect and simply belted out the melody lines in communal Hymn singing and provided very basic chants). The very best singers were kept for the main "Musical" services which alternated between the two principal churches - one of them the Thomaskirche: the "difficult" contrapuntal Music was kept for this small, elite band, which Bach personally supervised and led during services. The instrumantalists were a mixture of the most proficient of Bach's pupils and their professional teachers (funding for whom was regularly cut back, making Bach's job an increasing misery as the bosses holding back the funds also demanded that standards of performance were kept high. This will strike a familiar note with all Music teachers since time immemorial.) The Musicians' area of the Thomaskirche in Bach's time was much smaller than what's there now - and Bach's pupils were aged from 13 - 23, voices not breaking until about the age of 16 - 18 then!

All these fascinating snippets of information and many many more can be found in Andrew Parrott's wonderful book The Essential Bach Choir:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Essential-Bach-Choir-Andrew-Parrott/dp/0851157866/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394046449&sr=1-3&keywords=andrew+parrott