LSO Live sale - plus Blu-rays

[Dave2002]

When I first heard the LSO it was in the Festival Hall. I thought they were terrific, and despite some people’s views to the contrary, I thought the RFH was pretty good. I was used to the RLPO in their own hall. That orchestra was sometimes very good, sometimes not so good. The hall is, I think very good. On one occasion the LSO visited Liverpool, though unfortunately I was away and not able to go. I was told afterwards that the combination of orchestra plus hall was magnificent.

Maybe there is often a mismatch. I only heard one orchestra in Carnegie Hall, but it was a Russian orchestra - Leningrad I think with Temirkanov. Very good, though I had hoped to hear the NYPO, which I first heard oddly enough with Bernstein in Manchester’s Free Trade Hall - a venue which I didn’t really like much, though I went there sometimes to hear the Halle and Barbirolli.

[jayne lee wilson]

Have you any idea why the recordings from the Barbican often sound pretty awful? Is it the hall? As I wrote earlier, I have heard some good concerts there - but maybe I was forgiving of the acoustics. Is it the recording techniques used - maybe too many (or too few?) mics, too many close mics? I don't know. Is it because the performances really are live, and the microphone positions are a compromise between practicality for the live concert with an audience, and for optimum recording? Perhaps some moderate tinkering at the post processing stage would help - add in a bit of reverb - I know it's cheating - but to get a good result something like that might be better than leaving things as they are.

Maybe it's my own equipment - though I think other people don't like some of these recordings too much.

What do the LSO people themselves think? Given that it's one of the best orchestras in the world, they might not want to have recordings which don't do them fair justice.

See #7..... it can take some time, thought and effort, but the LSO Live recordings can be enjoyable....it is much harder of course, if you have little or no adjustability/choice of media in a system which doesn't inherently replay them well....
In my own experience, perhaps contrary to what many may think, the more a system reveals of a given recording, the more enjoyable it tends to be, even in a less than ideal acoustic. And a big soundstage in a good-sized room does no harm at all...

From wiki.....
"In 1994, Chicago acoustician Larry Kirkegaard oversaw a £500,000 acoustic re-engineering of the hall "producing a perceptible improvement in echo control and sound absorption", music critic Norman Lebrecht wrote in October 2000 – and returned in 2001 to rip out the stage canopy and drop adjustable acoustic reflectors, designed by Caruso St John, from the ceiling, as part of a £7.5 mn refurbishment of the hall. Art music magazine Gramophone still complained about "the relative dryness of the Barbican acoustic" in August 2007."

[pastoralguy]

The best concert hall I've ever played in or heard a concert at is the Caird Hall in Dundee. It's very similar is design to The Musikverein. A friend in the RSNO who has played in all the great concert halls agrees although he tells me he's NEVER seen it full.

The only problem is that it's in Dundee...

[jayne lee wilson]

The best concert hall I've ever played in or heard a concert at is the Caird Hall in Dundee. It's very similar is design to The Musikverein. A friend in the RSNO who has played in all the great concert halls agrees although he tells me he's NEVER seen it full.

The only problem is that it's in Dundee...

As heard to great advantage on Martinu Symphonies 1 & 5 of the RSNO/Thomson Chandos set (watch out for those dynamics......)......and the glorious, complete Magnard Symphonies on Hyperion, with the BBCSSO/Ossonce (very impressive and tonally beautiful, perhaps less challenging to replay...)....

[richardfinegold]

Years ago I usually enjoyed LSO Live in the way I enjoyed live BBCSO FM/AAC relays, living with the compromises,, but to some extent in spite of the acoustic..... still the best usually overcame it, my favourite back then was the Gergiev Prokofiev Symphonies and at least some of Davis' Sibelius. These orchestral characters fared better in the space than, say, Haitink's Brahms.

I went off it after a while, the acoustic became dull and predictable to the ear......until...

Much more recently I found some new favourites, and upgrades to my Dac a few years ago really brought them to life:
Mendelssohn Symphonies/JEG are now among my top choices for the works, aurally pleasing and consistently exciting on CD, better still (more body, warmth, presence etc) on Hi-RES/SACD. Same goes for the recent Schumann 2/4 and Rattle's outstanding Bruckner 6. And the Gergiev Prokofiev sounds better too (I can't see this on the current website though...is it there somewhere, or on Alto? Still on Amazon etc).

Worth recalling that they have had some very good tonmeisters on the case - e.g. Tony Faulkner, who has recorded many at 176.4khz, sounding all the better for it I think...some SACDs are mastered in DSD (e.g. the Schumann/JEG), which should help in a highly resolving system, at least if your DAC/player keeps the dsd/pcm discrete.

Colin Davis' Nielsen is more uneven (2 especially disappointing), but the c/w 4/5 is superbly done, the 5th one of the best ever, and among DJF's top choices in a Gramophone Collection survey last year. Again fine sound in any hi-res/lossless medium - but LSO Live is probably quite system dependent: fairly dry, explicit but slightly distanced, they need a healthy volume to bring the presence/detail alive in the room, which can lead to some hardness... so adjustability in the DAC can be essential and very telling on PCM - I usually run in "NOSDAC"-style + Pure Impulse Response/steep roll-off. Brings out warmth and immediacy. Inherent system warmth won't hurt either.

Just reread this post. Jlw, I know that you have mentioned it previously, but what DAC are you using?
Not all DACs offer different types of filter settings. Mine does but I never use them-I am more of a fix and forget it type....I guess that DAC filters have become like the tone controls or equalizers of previous days. My knee jerk reflex is to reject all of these interventions as “untruthful” but then since I have come to the realization that all audio playback is essentially an illusion, then one persons added distortion must be another person’s quest for hidden truth.
Nevertheless, venues that are so challenged that a recording cannot be tolerable without the aid of considerable intervention on the part of the listener...strike me as to problematic to bother with. Ymmv

[jayne lee wilson]

The T&A DAC 8, with two Linear (FIR) Filters: one standard, usual flat response with pre-post-echo, i.e, less accurate timing ("untruthful" in another plane...); one shortened with better impulse response but reduced linearity; and two of the pure impulse response "Bezier" type, one without any pre-post-echo but with a steep roll-off before 20khz, which as detailed above is the one I usually prefer.
The shorter Linear one is also useful for setting back a fierce or close recording. These effects are very subtle but far-reaching, nothing like an equaliser, more like modification at the genetic level!
The Bezier types are a considerable advance even over the apodising or minimum phase designs (excessive post-echo), and once you've heard them (or the faster FIR) you'd never go back to the standard FIR - to me this now sounds too matter-of-fact - rather dull, probably due to the timing errors.

You always feel you're listening to the same recording, but with a modified presentation. It won't make a bad recording good, but maybe more tolerable. Just think of it as post-production .

An SACD player I've been trying also offers the chance to switch off all up- or over-sampling on PCM (or convert PCM to DSD, yet more fun.......***), and very good this sounds, with a similar choice of filters to the DAC 8. Running without either OS or any filtering, the signal sent straight to the DAC, is truly fascinating...all stands revealed....

But as Pontius Pilate said, what is truth?

I do think that given the wide variability in rooms and systems and ears/recorded balances, adjustability is near-essential, unless you have a system balance that is more easygoing, whose character may smooth out sonic differences and difficulties; easier to live with, but maybe less revealing.... its that old audiophile dilemma!

If we could hear the LSO Live albums on the system used to monitor them, we would probably learn a lot.

*** Ken Ishiwata often preferred this approach in his more recent Marantz SACD/CD Players (though usually as a switchable choice)... so sad to hear of his passing last November at 72.

[richardfinegold]

The T&A DACs get good reviews.
What SACD are you auditioning?
Regarding Marantz SACD players, I used to own the SA8005, 2 channel only. It had a great midrange, and that is where most music lives, but it rolled off the top pretty badly. I was happy that I was able to get some credit for it when I bought my Oppo 105.

[jayne lee wilson]

The T&A DACs get good reviews.
What SACD are you auditioning?
Regarding Marantz SACD players, I used to own the SA8005, 2 channel only. It had a great midrange, and that is where most music lives, but it rolled off the top pretty badly. I was happy that I was able to get some credit for it when I bought my Oppo 105.

Richard - just sent you a PM about the SACD Player..... (its a keeper!)....

[Petrushka]

I was surprised at RO's reservations about the Bruckner 6, especially his comment about variable "sound profile", which I don't really pick up here (in three different media...)....I certainly don't hear the ending as a "raucous blare"......How very odd. (Simeone was much more positive on RR).

I've just played the LSO/Rattle Bruckner 6th which arrived today. I did actually have a ticket for the performance on January 20 but I wasn't too well at the time so didn't go.

My first impression regarding the sound was the same as Richard Osborne's which he thought 'somewhat thin and shallow-sounding' and I spent much of the first movement trying to find the right level. Once I did, it was much better but, like JLW, I don't understand RO's 'raucous blare'. Get the level right and it's fine. I didn't find the slow movement or finale too slow either as does RO, indeed the slow, second movement is very beautifully done and it held my attention throughout. All in all, I feel much more positive than expected having read RO's review.

[mathias broucek]

As heard to great advantage on Martinu Symphonies 1 & 5 of the RSNO/Thomson Chandos set (watch out for those dynamics......)......and the glorious, complete Magnard Symphonies on Hyperion, with the BBCSSO/Ossonce (very impressive and tonally beautiful, perhaps less challenging to replay...)....

Seconded in both cases!

[Dave2002]

Looks like the sale has now finished. It'd be good to know when - if - there's another one from this label, though I have most of the ones I really fancied, and the issues relating to the sound quality are not going to go away. I didn't actually buy any this time round.