Unplayable new CDs

[soileduk]

http://www.cyrusaudio.com/

[LeMartinPecheur]

Thanks everyone for all your very variegated answers! Disc faults seem to be eliminated as it's happened in all cases on first playing and I do know all the tricks for checking, and where possible polishing out, physical damage. And as reported, they play fine in much less sophisticated players. Sending the disc back is a tricky option in one case as the disc was bought from the artists at a concert!

I think I probably need to check out a Cyrus service and upgrade Thanks for the link Soileduk.

[Bryn]

I buy a lot of discs from eBay and charity and have had very few 'duffers'. It's usually scratches that cause the most problems although scratches across the discs cause less problem than scratches that run parallel to the curve of the track. Something I've found helps is to make a copy using a computer then play the copy and leave the damaged disc in the box. It almost always works.

I suspect that that may well prove to be the simplest short-term possibility of a solution to the immediate problem. Just try ripping the discs and burning the results to CD-Rs. It's quite likely they will play, if other CD-Rs do.

[Ferretfancy]

I know I'm a bit off course, but can anybody tell me if a high quality SACD player would give better results playing non SACD discs than a normal CD player of comparable price range. In other words, would it upgrade CD performance in terms of resolution and imaging? My Meridian G08 machine is fine, and copes well with hybrid discs playing the standard CD layer, but I wonder if it would be worth an expensive upgrade.

[jayne lee wilson]

I know I'm a bit off course, but can anybody tell me if a high quality SACD player would give better results playing non SACD discs than a normal CD player of comparable price range. In other words, would it upgrade CD performance in terms of resolution and imaging? My Meridian G08 machine is fine, and copes well with hybrid discs playing the standard CD layer, but I wonder if it would be worth an expensive upgrade.

It comes down in every case to the individual design, FF, but in purist terms the less a onebox machine has to do, potentially the better for sound quality, so it can easily be the opposite: if you want the best possible CD-only replay, buy a CD-only player. (If only because the design budget goes on SACD and CD in a hybrid machine). There is no intrinsic reason why an SACD player should sound better with CDs.

With an SACD/CD player, much depends on what the DAC does. I think some very rare and expensive machines keep the two chains distinct, with separate conversion for DSD (SACD) and CD, but many use the same chipset (eg Wolfson 8741), often with a compromise in sound. There are many implementation options, but often the only possible benefit in those is that the SACD processing avoids the PCM filters, but with a good CD player with clever filtering (and more recent DACs) this shouldn't really be a problem anyway.

But one of many problems is that SACDs are usually drawn from PCM masters, and really for the medium to work as it was intended to, the master should be a DSD one. Discs made from these are very rare. This is one reason why a 24-bit download can sound better than a physical SACD made from the same PCM master - there's less potential for data loss from the conversion/playback. BUT above all, the resulting sound of disc/file replay is always dependent on the individual design itself, from transport to output, or the DAC if using a computer source.

Anyway, the G08 seems great, to judge from their pedigree and all the reviews! I don't think you can really do a lot better this side of a remortgage. If you have enough SACDs to justify purchase of a player, much careful auditioning is in order, but I'd be inclined to hang on to any highend CD player at this point of history, even if it meant running an SACD player alongside it. But happily for me, I'm no fan of SACD anyway...

[Gordon]

I know I'm a bit off course, but can anybody tell me if a high quality SACD player would give better results playing non SACD discs than a normal CD player of comparable price range. In other words, would it upgrade CD performance in terms of resolution and imaging? My Meridian G08 machine is fine, and copes well with hybrid discs playing the standard CD layer, but I wonder if it would be worth an expensive upgrade.

I'd be interested to know of others have more detailed knowledge than I do but I think that SACD players have to use two different optical pick-up systems to be able to play both SACD and CDs. The wavelengths of the lasers are different as are the lens numerical apertures and track pitches, so reading a normal CD with the SACD laser system would lead to significant compromises in the optical system. Both systems are highly tuned to their respective optical features and how the tracks are cut into the discs. Unless I am mistaken the result is that an SACD player playing a CD is no diffferent in principle to any other CD player. In practice, of course, there are engineering issues in building a dual read-out system and so it could be argued that playing a CD on an SACD player is actually compromised compared to a dedicated player. I'm open to be corrected - chastised even.

Just seen JLW's response too - I'm glad we seem to agree, but perhaps for different but complementary reasons!!

[jayne lee wilson]

Thank god for that Gordon - I was worried you'd shoot me down in flames...

[Gordon]

Thank god for that Gordon - I was worried you'd shoot me down in flames...

Now why would I do that to a Lady, and one from my alma mater too!! Anyway, I take no pleasure in being destructively critical of anyone. What you had to say made good sense to me. The devil is always in the detail so the Keep It Simple principle is usually best.

[Ferretfancy]

Thank god for that Gordon - I was worried you'd shoot me down in flames...

Thank you Jane and Gordon!

That was valuable information for me. The thing is that my Meridian system does have surround sound outputs, but the sound controller at the centre of the system does not have provision for SACD, I suspect because Boothroyd Stuart do not approve of it ! The feeds to the five speakers are all digital, and the conversion to analogue happens inside the active speakers. There are no discrete analogue outputs from the controller.

However, there are numerous options for synthesising surround information from 2 channel sources, and they are very impressive if adjusted carefully. There are also all the surround options for DVD playback. All in all, I'm happy with the set up--just get the tweekies occasionally!

Thanks again,

Ferret

[richardfinegold]

It comes down in every case to the individual design, FF, but in purist terms the less a onebox machine has to do, potentially the better for sound quality, so it can easily be the opposite: if you want the best possible CD-only replay, buy a CD-only player. (If only because the design budget goes on SACD and CD in a hybrid machine). There is no intrinsic reason why an SACD player should sound better with CDs.

With an SACD/CD player, much depends on what the DAC does. I think some very rare and expensive machines keep the two chains distinct, with separate conversion for DSD (SACD) and CD, but many use the same chipset (eg Wolfson 8741), often with a compromise in sound. There are many implementation options, but often the only possible benefit in those is that the SACD processing avoids the PCM filters, but with a good CD player with clever filtering (and more recent DACs) this shouldn't really be a problem anyway.

But one of many problems is that SACDs are usually drawn from PCM masters, and really for the medium to work as it was intended to, the master should be a DSD one. Discs made from these are very rare. This is one reason why a 24-bit download can sound better than a physical SACD made from the same PCM master - there's less potential for data loss from the conversion/playback. BUT above all, the resulting sound of disc/file replay is always dependent on the individual design itself, from transport to output, or the DAC if using a computer source.

Anyway, the G08 seems great, to judge from their pedigree and all the reviews! I don't think you can really do a lot better this side of a remortgage. If you have enough SACDs to justify purchase of a player, much careful auditioning is in order, but I'd be inclined to hang on to any highend CD player at this point of history, even if it meant running an SACD player alongside it. But happily for me, I'm no fan of SACD anyway...

I am a fan of SACD, and I have well over a hundred of them in my collection. I have several players in my various systems that play SACDs without having to convert them to a PCM stage and I am quite pleased with the sound. I bought a couple of high rez downloads of the of two of my SACDs to compare and I much prefer the SACD for their ease of use, as I can't appreciate any improvement in sound via the download (the downloads sound slightly different, but not necessarily better).
That however was not the question, which as I understand it, was how does a Red Book CD sound when played via a SACD player. My experience is that they sound damn good. My players tend to be "Universal Players" whose manufacturers were surely aware that most people would be playing regular CDs and not
alternative formats. jlw lists theoretical reasons why a player that is dedicated to CD playback should sound better than a multipurpose player, and perhaps in a very inexpensive player that can spin SACD that may be a factor. (I have a couple of budget Sony Blu Ray players that play SACD and of course CD but sound awful in the process). However, once one spends around $600 or more for a Universal Player, my experience is that there are no sonic compromises.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I've discovered a no-cost answer The Off switch on the Cyrus player puts it into some sort of Stand-by mode. It's not completely cut off from mains power because a little red light stays on, no doubt to keep its electronics pre-warmed for optimal sound quality I've found that two of the discs that wouldn't load will do so after turning it off at the wall. More remain to be tested but this is obviously very encouraging!

I had a rather similar issue with a TV digital box plugged into an old tube TV. It seemed to be dead, but a complete turn-off and set-up restored it.

[Gordon]

I've discovered a no-cost answer The Off switch on the Cyrus player puts it into some sort of Stand-by mode. It's not completely cut off from mains power because a little red light stays on, no doubt to keep its electronics pre-warmed for optimal sound quality I've found that two of the discs that wouldn't load will do so after turning it off at the wall. More remain to be tested but this is obviously very encouraging!

I had a rather similar issue with a TV digital box plugged into an old tube TV. It seemed to be dead, but a complete turn-off and set-up restored it.

That technique works with a lot of modern electronics!! Equivalent to the old "tap with hammer" for freeing up sticky mechanics. But given that the software is "fixed" it is puzzling why a reset seems to do what it does - perhaps there is more to it than just a firmware reboot.

Anyway glad there is a partial solution to your dilemma. However, and not wishing to be negative, one should be concerned as to why this happened.

[soileduk]

I've discovered a no-cost answer The Off switch on the Cyrus player puts it into some sort of Stand-by mode. It's not completely cut off from mains power because a little red light stays on, no doubt to keep its electronics pre-warmed for optimal sound quality I've found that two of the discs that wouldn't load will do so after turning it off at the wall. More remain to be tested but this is obviously very encouraging!

I had a rather similar issue with a TV digital box plugged into an old tube TV. It seemed to be dead, but a complete turn-off and set-up restored it.

Yes, that may help for a while. Have a chat with Cyrus though.

[Dave2002]

That technique works with a lot of modern electronics!! Equivalent to the old "tap with hammer" for freeing up sticky mechanics. But given that the software is "fixed" it is puzzling why a reset seems to do what it does - perhaps there is more to it than just a firmware reboot.

I suppose it's possible that a memory fault could be corrected by switching on/off - if there was a misread from ROM.

If there's any serious software in the player, so that data and/or programs get affected by memory failures, this could also explain the issue. Yet another, very unlikely IMO, possibility is if the player tries to do any complex operations like a computer - memory management, garbage collection etc. If most things run from fixed storage this should not be possible.

One remaining possibility is simply heat. How long was the unit switched off for before it was brought back from the dead re playing those CDs? If it was only a few seconds then the problem was most likely electrical or computer hardware/software related, but if long enough to have allowed the player and perhaps also the discs to cool down, then other mechanical and tolerances factors could have come into play.

Some PVR boxes have had mysterious failures which seem to require ALL of the following:

1. Power off
2. Disconnect from power socket.
3. Unplug the TV connection
4. Disconnect the aerial..

I experienced such a failure at least once, and although protesting that steps 4 and possibly also 3 were unnecessay, was assured that the faults would not clear without them. This did indeed seem to be the case.

PS: Additionally some new PVRs won't work unless also

5. There is a working Internet connection. This seems to be the case with BT YouView boxes.

[soileduk]

I suppose it's possible that a memory fault could be corrected by switching on/off - if there was a misread from ROM.

If there's any serious software in the player, so that data and/or programs get affected by memory failures, this could also explain the issue. Yet another, very unlikely IMO, possibility is if the player tries to do any complex operations like a computer - memory management, garbage collection etc. If most things run from fixed storage this should not be possible.

One remaining possibility is simply heat. How long was the unit switched off for before it was brought back from the dead re playing those CDs? If it was only a few seconds then the problem was most likely electrical or computer hardware/software related, but if long enough to have allowed the player and perhaps also the discs to cool down, then other mechanical and tolerances factors could have come into play.

Some PVR boxes have had mysterious failures which seem to require ALL of the following:

1. Power off
2. Disconnect from power socket.
3. Unplug the TV connection
4. Disconnect the aerial..

I experienced such a failure at least once, and although protesting that steps 4 and possibly also 3 were unnecessay, was assured that the faults would not clear without them. This did indeed seem to be the case.

I don't think you'll find its a circuit hardware, or even software, problem. The mention of heat is probably more relevant but in a tangential way. Have a chat with Cyrus.