Unplayable new CDs

[LeMartinPecheur]

I have a number of new CDs which fresh out of the box won't play on my Cyrus CD player, though they seem to be OK on other players (a DVD player and a ghetto-blaster). There's no sign of dirty fingerprints or whatever.

Either the disc seems not to be recognized as a proper CD and gets spat out with an error message displayed, or it appears to load with the correct number of tracks and running time displayed, then pushing the Play button achieves nothing.

I'd had this a few times with smaller labels such as BMS (Moeran Folk Song settings) and Signum (Saint-Saens cello sonatas) but I was very surprised when it happened with two of the three recent Decca Chailly Brahms symphony discs.

Any clues please??

[Gordon]

I have a number of new CDs which fresh out of the box won't play on my Cyrus CD player, though they seem to be OK on other players (a DVD player and a ghetto-blaster). There's no sign of dirty fingerprints or whatever.

Either the disc seems not to be recognized as a proper CD and gets spat out with an error message displayed, or it appears to load with the correct number of tracks and running time displayed, then pushing the Play button achieves nothing.

I'd had this a few times with smaller labels such as BMS (Moeran Folk Song settings) and Signum (Saint-Saens cello sonatas) but I was very surprised when it happened with two of the three recent Decca Chailly Brahms symphony discs.

Any clues please??

Don't know of this will help LMP but I have a Cyrus 8 SE2 and used to have trouble with it until they did an "upgrade" a year or so back. Before then it would not play any CD-R's or SACDs [in CD mode]. It also rejected a few CDs that I knew to be good on other players, as yours does. It would start after a few tries [so it got the TOC data] but then would fail to play or do so after playing a few tracks and would not go to a chosen track, rather than start at the beginning and run through them all.

Now it plays anything and I have not had any problems since it came back via the dealer. In fact it sounds better than it did with a precise and open sound but also enough warmth to avoid being too clinical.

What machine is it, how old [could be the laser dying eg] and has it ever been "upgraded". Has it always been like this but now getting worse or has it just started? It's possible that a trip home to Huntingdon is needed [bit of a trek for Cornwall!!].

It would appear that someone that used to work [but no longer!] at Cyrus had this thing about precision and the "Red Book" and so the player was set up that way. They use their own design of player and so it looks as if they've changed their set up approach and have changed the player tolerance. Have you tried their web site for clues?

[Stunsworth]

If the CDs play in other machines that might mean the CD player needs to be looked at by Mission. I'd try a lens cleaning CD first in case it's a problem with dust on the lens.

[Pianoman]

I have had 2 Cyrus cd players and much as I liked them their patchy reliability made me get rid and resurrect my ancient (ish) Sony ES player which was, and still is, faultless regardless of what I throw at it. I think the advice about the upgrade is good depending on which model it is, but I do know of other Cyrus owners who have been disappointed - perhaps the Cyrus forum can help, as they know their stuff generally.

[Dave2002]

Clues? I come from Barcelona!

Seriously though, if the CDs are faulty, send them back and get new copies.

If they don't play on the Cyrus, but do on other players, then maybe you have got dirt into the playback system. A lens cleaner can help. Another possibility is that the read out head has been dislodged so gone out of alignment. Have you bumped or dropped the player recently? If the player is an expensive one (possibly) then it may be worth having it repaired.

I once had a brand new CD player which wouldn't play anything reliably. As I recall I discovered that it would play if tilted up at say 20-30 degrees. Finally I turned it upside down - maybe even gave it a bit of a thump - and as I recall a very small piece of (packing?) material dropped out, after which it was very good.

If the player is relatively old it may be time to accept that it has passed its sell by date. I did that with an early model Philips CD player - which was really nice until it started to go off badly.

Lastly, if the problems do lie with the CDs, and you can't get them replaced, then try ripping them using a computer - if necessary use a tool such as EAC (Exact Audio Copy), and then either play the rips, or create new CDs from the files. I have used that technique with some difficult to track CDs bought from charity shops.

[soileduk]

http://www.cyrusaudio.com/

[Petrushka]

If the CDs play in other machines that might mean the CD player needs to be looked at by Mission. I'd try a lens cleaning CD first in case it's a problem with dust on the lens.

This is the most likely cause, I'd say. If the CDs play on other machines it's highly unlikely that they are at fault and, in all fairness, faulty CDs are very rare in my experience. I'd try the simple solution of a lens cleaning CD first and if that fails to solve the problem, then it could be time for a new CD player.

[VodkaDilc]

Surely the first move is to get the CDs replaced. If they are new, no dealer could refuse.

I'm not being deliberately contradictory, Petrushka. Our postings appeared at the same time. I have had very occasional examples of faulty discs, either new or damaged, which played in budget systems (car or the cheap player at my school), but not in my far too expensive player at home. I'd certainly try the CD route first.

[Petrushka]

Surely the first move is to get the CDs replaced. If they are new, no dealer could refuse.

I'm not being deliberately contradictory, Petrushka. Our postings appeared at the same time. I have had very occasional examples of faulty discs, either new or damaged, which played in budget systems (car or the cheap player at my school), but not in my far too expensive player at home. I'd certainly try the CD route first.

It's interesting how experiences differ. Amongst the hundreds (more like thousands by now) of CDs bought over a period of 30 years I've only had one or two that could be considered faulty. I sent one back to MDT who said there was nothing wrong with it and suggested my player was at fault. Another disc wouldn't play on my CD player but works fine on my DVD recorder. Another disc refused to play some years ago and that was the sign that I needed a new player. 3 faulty discs in 30 years isn't bad going.

It's all a process of elimination when things go wrong so LMP should indeed try the CD route first.

[soileduk]

I have a number of new CDs which fresh out of the box won't play on my Cyrus CD player, though they seem to be OK on other players (a DVD player and a ghetto-blaster). There's no sign of dirty fingerprints or whatever.

Either the disc seems not to be recognized as a proper CD and gets spat out with an error message displayed, or it appears to load with the correct number of tracks and running time displayed, then pushing the Play button achieves nothing.

I'd had this a few times with smaller labels such as BMS (Moeran Folk Song settings) and Signum (Saint-Saens cello sonatas) but I was very surprised when it happened with two of the three recent Decca Chailly Brahms symphony discs.

Any clues please??

I think you should have a chat with Cyrus.You need to rule out(or in) a tired laser pick up.

[richardfinegold]

I think others have identified the issue as being the CD player. I once had a Rega Apollo that was also mighty fussy about what discs it would play, and it was fortunate that I had multiple systems and could easily identify the player as the culprit.
Does your Cyrus player have digital inputs? If so, you can still use it as a DAC, and use something else as a transport, such as your DVD player or a computer.
If it doesn't then you may want to invest in a DAC. It is truly amazing what great DACs can be had for a modest outlay. I was out of town for a few days and before I left I had purchased a Dragon Fly from Audioquest (I think they are available on your side of the pond, as I have seen them reviewed in British HIFi magazines). It looks like a USB Flash Drive, cost $100, and did it ever improve the sound of my MacBook Pro. I tried it in the home system this morning ( it requires a mini jack cable that terminates in a standard two channel RCA jack) and it compares very well with the resident DAC. Combine that with a $50 DVD player from a supermarket and it is a very respectable source.

[jayne lee wilson]

Having always had 2 or 3 CD players or transports around, I can say with some certainty that this is a specific transport/laser problem, and the first step should be to have it serviced by Cyrus, unless it's too old to repair, and consider the cost/benefit thing too.

Out of many thousands of discs I've only had 4 or 5 that caused any playback problems, hardly any of them serious. Cleaning might help with one or two, but using a liquid/dampcloth cleaner plus tapwater rather than disc-brushes. BUT - I've found that while a given disc may play perfectly after cleaning, the same player may refuse to play it again later on. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. With those rare few that gave problems, I found a quick fix for the Krell/Teac transport was to power down then power back up, this resets the transport and a troublesome CD would often playback OK, but only for that one time - you'd have to repeat the process...

So - bite the bullet and send it to Cyrus. I'm aware they haven't got the greatest reputation for backup, so email or phone them first to check serviceability.

(Testing error correction with a gapped disc, the sophisticated Krell/Teac VRDS would achieve level 3 or 4 out of 5, the standard Marantz/Philips CDM-12 only ever 1! YET it was the Marantz that was the more tolerant with problem discs... the strangest one I had was a Chesky (2 copies of the Gruenberg/Horenstein/Beethoven Vn.Cto) which the Krell played with a constant loud accompaniment of crackling noise - the Marantz played it perfectly. Go figure...)

[richardfinegold]

Having always had 2 or 3 CD players or transports around, I can say with some certainty that this is a specific transport/laser problem, and the first step should be to have it serviced by Cyrus, unless it's too old to repair, and consider the cost/benefit thing too.

Out of many thousands of discs I've only had 4 or 5 that caused any playback problems, hardly any of them serious. Cleaning might help with one or two, but using a liquid/dampcloth cleaner plus tapwater rather than disc-brushes. BUT - I've found that while a given disc may play perfectly after cleaning, the same player may refuse to play it again later on. Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't. With those rare few that gave problems, I found a quick fix for the Krell/Teac transport was to power down then power back up, this resets the transport and a troublesome CD would often playback OK, but only for that one time - you'd have to repeat the process...

So - bite the bullet and send it to Cyrus. I'm aware they haven't got the greatest reputation for backup, so email or phone them first to check serviceability.

(Testing error correction with a gapped disc, the sophisticated Krell/Teac VRDS would achieve level 3 or 4 out of 5, the standard Marantz/Philips CDM-12 only ever 1! YET it was the Marantz that was the more tolerant with problem discs... the strangest one I had was a Chesky (2 copies of the Gruenberg/Horenstein/Beethoven Vn.Cto) which the Krell played with a constant loud accompaniment of crackling noise - the Marantz played it perfectly. Go figure...)

Weird. I have that Beethoven Concerto disc, which is a gem. It has always played on my various players.
Fussiest player that I ever had was the aforementioned Rega Apollo. It only lasted a few months in my system because it drove me bonkers. It's standards for disc perfection were to Apollonian, I guess.

[pastoralguy]

I buy a lot of discs from eBay and charity and have had very few 'duffers'. It's usually scratches that cause the most problems although scratches across the discs cause less problem than scratches that run parallel to the curve of the track. Something I've found helps is to make a copy using a computer then play the copy and leave the damaged disc in the box. It almost always works.

[Gordon]

Thinking some more about this:

I have a number of new CDs which fresh out of the box won't play on my Cyrus CD player, though they seem to be OK on other players (a DVD player and a ghetto-blaster). There's no sign of dirty fingerprints or whatever.

The laser scans the disc on the plain side which needs to be clean and unblemished but what about any signs of damage on the label side – there is only a thin lacquer cover on the metalised layer and so it is easily damaged. Hold the disc up to the light and see if there are any visible pinholes near the centre. Circumferential damage ie along the tracks is far worse than radial. Label side damage is especially true of CD-R - if you write on that side after burning, be very careful as you write not to press too hard.

Either the disc seems not to be recognized as a proper CD and gets spat out with an error message displayed, or it appears to load with the correct number of tracks and running time displayed, then pushing the Play button achieves nothing.

Quite a lot has to happen in a player before music comes out!! Seems to me that the player here can’t find the disc either because it can’t verify its physical presence or the laser carrier sled isn’t being driven correctly to where it needs to be to find the TOC area near the centre. If it finds and reads the TOC – as it appears to sometimes – it is then able to find the tracks and can issue commands to the laser sled servos to move it to the right part of the disc surface as the disc spins.

At start up first the player needs to find the start of the spiral with the radial servo then find the track and get the lens focus servo on it before it can read any data. Both servos need to be dynamic during play to deal with disc eccentricities and warps, run out and jitter in the platter bearing, etc. Players will have different algorithms for doing this that might well be complex – they involve compromises - and they will also have different settings for the search and playing modes. Some algorithms will be more tolerant than others of disc pressing faults or disc condition eg dirt etc. If the disc was made from a poor or worn injection moulding tool or the metalisation isn't reflective enough or has holes it is already making the player’s task more difficult. So a combination of a poor or dirty disc and a player with an aged laser or perhaps an intolerant servo algorithm will cause problems. Ironically consumer devices are generally more tolerant of all kinds of defects. Whilst we talk frequently of the role of the error correction system in CD the real heroes are the servos; a good servo system will save a great deal of error correction.

JLW said:

(Testing error correction with a gapped disc, the sophisticated Krell/Teac VRDS would achieve level 3 or 4 out of 5, the standard Marantz/Philips CDM-12 only ever 1! YET it was the Marantz that was the more tolerant with problem discs... the strangest one I had was a Chesky (2 copies of the Gruenberg/Horenstein/Beethoven Vn.Cto) which the Krell played with a constant loud accompaniment of crackling noise - the Marantz played it perfectly. Go figure...)

This points up what I was saying above about tolerance levels in players. Making 3 mm holes in a disc causes two types of problem that result in bad audio. The first is that the tracking and focussing servos both get hit by severe transient disturbances – ie complete loss of signal lasting 5 milli-seconds – every revolution of the disc ie every 400 milli-seconds in the middle of the disc [which revolves at between 200 and 400 RPM]. It doesn’t end after the hole has passed because both servo loops have to remain calm during the gap in order to recover the track accurately and promptly.

The second is that it has to find replacement data for that whole block which has been lost and the CIRC system has to do that together with some interpolation and, finally, muting in severe cases. So the question is: which is the most damaging, the loss of tracking servo lock or the loss of data? Some players have retry/re-read as part of the tracking algorithm [portables tend to do this more than static machines] but this will be of no use in the case of a large hole or physical damage!! In light of this consider what is going on when discs appear to be playing well. It may well be that track following and focus is not so good [worn machine, badly pressed or dirty disc] and so a lot of correction [inaudible] and perhaps interpolation [audible] is going on which will make the sound less good than it could be.

A 3mm hole towards the middle of the disc occupies about 1/80th of the circumference equivalent to about 5 milli-seconds of data or about 240 audio samples worst case. However this disturbance lasts about 400 seconds!! [tracks are 1.5 microns wide and so there are 2000 disc revolutions at 300 RPM in a 3 mm hole] but not all to the same extent.

That crackling sound tends to suggest that the designers have decided that it is better to give sound as is rather than mute or perhaps interpolate. The fact that the Marantz played suggests a more robust error control system above and beyond the CIRC. It also suggests “better” servos. You can’t get optimum data recovery unless you pay close attention to the servos in the tracking system of the transport.