Pristine Audio Favourites

[frankwm]

No; if your memory was better you'd recall R3MB of yore.

a) re: Mahler 9/Walter: why don't you invite your friend, AR, to hear the 78's..

b) you avoid responding to the fact that the transfer used for your 'Pristine' 1812 version is 'sonically challenged'..

c) you appear to have problems with LINKS - as the Brahms 4 is the original transfer (free: an LP worth vastly more than a '99pee from eBay' box-set) - and someone else (previously a 'Pristeenie' Groupie) has provided two graphs - + confirmation that there's something 'really wrong' with the AR transfer.

d) I think you're a bit long-in-the-tooth to indulge in Biting Sarcasm! (and you avoid 'the invitation' to analyse 'noise-reduction' damage to original recorded resolution: rather more important to those who consider what they hear, from AR, to be akin to French Impressionism.

e) finally, never mind me (or any other 'dissenters'); as a Pristinee you dwell in the Land where the sun shines continuously from the Nether Regions (or Aquitaine).

[jayne lee wilson]

Thankyou, Gordon, for such a generous, detailed and enlightening response. I'm not equipped to carry out the experiment I'm afraid, but I found your comments in Part 2 about subjective tolerance of 24/16-bit differences very apposite to my own experiences. By the way, all I meant about greater "dynamic subtlety" being theoretically possible in 24-bit recordings was the potential for finer differences between levels - the point mikealdren made about sampling at 16-bits being "in less fine increments"... I trust I haven't misunderstood...

Frankwm.... Music hath Charms to Soothe the Savage Breast - or any troubled beast. And it's quite good for Sarcastic Projection too. Put something nice on, something that makes you go, ooh, yes! A Rameau Suite ought to do it...

[frankwm]

....somehow I wouldn't expect, what is about my only Rameau LP, to lull me to sleep; but as L'Oiseau-Lyre SOL 60024 (Lamoureux/de Froment) is now out of copyright (and never on CD) at some stage you may have the shodditunity to be able to purchase a very special '24bit' neutered transcription from AR which will do just that.

How Delightful, How Radio 3 .....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz (is there an 'Irony' icon around here: as I failed to notice that re: the '1812' comment ??) - but you do at least have this one....

PS: If you like the game of hunt-the-thimble - see if you can find any reference to a CD being the 'source' in the above 'favourite' business site ...

[french frank]

frankwm: you appear to have registered here to pursue what seems to be an idée fixe, of which many internet sites show evidence by your presence. That is not a very popular reason for joining this forum. You are welcome to join in the general discussions but I think you have made your views sufficiently clear on this topic.

[Gordon]

... I trust I haven't misunderstood......

Thank you for your comments on my response. No, I don't think you have misunderstood. You will have seen that I agreed with mikealdren's comment on AR's piece. RFG's comments in #17 and #19 show that he is not a fan of AR's work either so this thread is not wholly enamoured with his work or his philosophy. I posted the AR piece because it happened to turn up just when Throps started this thread off and so it seemed relevant background and a bit of insight into that philosophy.

Crumbs, Jayne, you are a night owl!! OR has your computer clock AWOL? Or perhaps it's the exciting anticipation of tonight's local derby!

[Nick Armstrong]

an idée fixe

That being presumably the amusing overuse of inverted commas...

[frankwm]

Hello FF,

I'd always refrained from joining or 'contributing' to other parts of your site, as (as commented privately to correspondents; some hereabouts), members tend to be those from the old R3MB - not infrequently providing rather similar remarks to then.

Incidentally, the supposed 'idee fixe' is a consequence of creating a prior Google Group, where I deposited a few files of recordings being referred to/requested on that old board.

I didn't/don't do this for my own benefit; nor would I expect others to be 'so generous' (as indicated heretofore)...indeed, some make it a business..

Your 'non idee-fixe' defence of 'BBC Radio 3 Standards' is likewise very well-known, and, of course, wholly admirable!

[Nick Armstrong]

'QED'

[french frank]

Hello FF,

I'd always refrained from joining or 'contributing' to other parts of your site, as (as commented privately to correspondents; some hereabouts), members tend to be those from the old R3MB - not infrequently providing rather similar remarks to then.

Incidentally, the supposed 'idee fixe' is a consequence of creating a prior Google Group, where I deposited a few files of recordings being referred to/requested on that old board.

I didn't/don't do this for my own benefit; nor would I expect others to be 'so generous' (as indicated heretofore)...indeed, some make it a business..

Your 'non idee-fixe' defence of 'BBC Radio 3 Standards' is likewise very well-known, and, of course, wholly admirable!

Your response is very kind: I think it merits a 'merci de votre compréhension'; as you know, certain issues can enflame tempers and people do find that somewhat offputting

[Gordon]

No; if your memory was better you'd recall R3MB of yore.

Your date of joining this forum and the number of posts recorded suggested that you were new here. I do not recall [yes my memory could be better] seeing your ID here before. I do remember the old MB; some of the posters being still around here, still using their old IDs.

If you were present on that earlier board did you use the same ID? Would I have reason to recognise you? I had a trawl through the old MBs and did not find your current name; that is not to say you were not there.

a) re: Mahler 9/Walter: why don't you invite your friend, AR, to hear the 78's..

He isn’t my friend and he’s capable of finding a set himself. In the light of previous comments about this recording I thought it would be good to be able to hear something close to the source. There seems to be an opportunity there for someone who has the wherewithal to do a better job. The EMI CD I have is CDH 763 029 2 and from their References series transferred from 78s by Keith Hardwick. It is of its time and possibly this version was out on LP first and simply dubbed to CD. I took the Pristine, whose source is undisclosed but perhaps you can enlighten us, as an example of something more recent and found it an improvement. Is it the last word? certainly not. Would I take it down to listen to in preference to any other, eg Abbado or Klemperer, possibly I would for its musical values and for its own time and place.

b) you avoid responding to the fact that the transfer used for your 'Pristine' 1812 version is 'sonically challenged'..

I thought I had responded already. The LP I had was sonically challenged as I described.

c) you appear to have problems with LINKS - as the Brahms 4 is the original transfer (free: an LP worth vastly more than a '99pee from eBay' box-set) - and someone else (previously a 'Pristeenie' Groupie) has provided two graphs - + confirmation that there's something 'really wrong' with the AR transfer.

How so? I have visited your site after Alain Marechal’s prompt [#16], before that I had no knowledge of it at all, why should I? I have an interest in restored recordings but I don’t live and breathe them. I have seen the various remarks there and some of the correspondence whose tone is aggressive and confrontational. Having found your site I will sample what is there and hear for myself.

It is clear that you have considerable experience in vinyl playback and restoration. It is also clear that you have a passionate interest in restoration and very strong ideas of what makes a good transfer and what does not. You are also open about your sources quoting vinyl matrix numbers and commenting on different generations that are available as alternatives. Insofar that certain other restorers don’t declare their sources so openly and operate as a commercial business then your approach is commendable.

You disapprove of AR’s approach both technical and commercial and I also see some of the reasons for that. What I can’t understand is why you use such a confrontational tone. You don’t need to. It seems to me from what I have learned from your site that your approach is eminently sound and can speak for itself.

d) I think you're a bit long-in-the-tooth to indulge in Biting Sarcasm! (and you avoid 'the invitation' to analyse 'noise-reduction' damage to original recorded resolution: rather more important to those who consider what they hear, from AR, to be akin to French Impressionism.

How would you have any idea how old I am? What does that have to do with anything? And as to sarcasm, maybe that is something of a privilege of old age, I was responding to your tone in like kind.

As to noise reduction technology, going all the way back to No Noise and CEDAR, they are tools that try to exploit the different statistical properties of noise and music and thus attempt to separate them. Some of the early uses of NoNoise on CD were not good taking too much out of the sound and making it very dry to listen to. Adding back artificial reverb isn’t really a remedy is it? The approach is very beguiling in theory but a hard task in practice and easily overdone. As technology has developed these tools have got more and more sophisticated and been applied more of the issues eg Capstan as you have said. We had a discussion here about the correction of W&F some while back and were sceptical. There is no guarantee that these tools will solve all the problems and so we should be wary of them.

The dilemma facing a restorer is keeping a balance and that will always involve some taste and judgement as well as technical expertise. You mention Pearl – I have quite a number of their CDs acquired for what the music is, not because of any technical reason, and find them very acceptable. Despite a measure of noise etc left in one soon forgets that. I also have some Biddulph, Dutton and Amphion transfers of old material and these are also acceptable too. Are these CDs to be dumped now that more sophisticated technology is available? No.

I don’t have a particular liking for Pristine’s output, I have obtained some of them out of a curiosity for what he has to offer and because his was the only source I had found for some early material. I have enjoyed some of the output for what it is. I would not propose to anyone that these transfers are to be preferred over all others or that some of the music he chooses to process is worthy of it. I was disappointed with that recent stereo Toscanini Tchaikovsky for example.

e) finally, never mind me (or any other 'dissenters'); as a Pristinee you dwell in the Land where the sun shines continuously from the Nether Regions (or Aquitaine).

I am not a Pristinee nor an apologist for AR. Just because someone buys an AR transfer doesn’t mean they are against you. Ranting at people in that tone and language simply isn’t very conducive to a civilised conversation and it does you no good service however just or not your cause may be.

Another longish posting for which I am sorry but it seems that it was necessary and you did request some of it.

[clive heath]

Not quite sure whether this is wise but my own attempts at Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas (9 of them) are at

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

Brickbats or Bouquets?

[PJPJ]

Not quite sure whether this is wise but my own attempts at Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas (9 of them) are at

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

Brickbats or Bouquets?

Bouquet from me.



Many thanks - I do visit your site regularly and have been cheered up from time to time by your fine transfers of Benny Goodman, Duke Ellington and, especially, Fats Waller.

e.g.

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/transcriptions_10.php

Apologies for offtopicness.

[PJPJ]

I did buy this one after my last post on the subject a little while ago. Oddly, I didn't grow up with these performances, but came across them from LP dubs two or three years ago and enjoyed the performances a lot. Charles Munch produced much good work in his early years in Boston and though some has seen reissue on CD, these two never made the cut, I guess due to later stereo versions replacing them. I do have the Schumann in its later recording in a fine transfer from HDTT [and at 24/96 - yes, I do hear the difference even in these older recording] and good though that is, this earlier recording has a youthful ebullience which is quite captivating. The Schumann is probably not preferable to many more modern ones, Kubelik DG, Dausgaard, Sawallisch [yes, I have those as 24/96 as well], Karajan to mention a few, but it is nonetheless, for me, a little charmer.

The new remastering is a huge improvement on the earlier LP dubs I had in several respects, sound with more body, and far, far fewer imperfections from the early vinyl. However, considering what excellent work RCA did just a few years later in both Boston and Chicago, these are definitely in the historic camp as far as sound quality is concerned. This probably also explains why RCA/Sony haven't seen fit to reissue them in various Munch collections.

So, yes, I am delighted these forgotten recordings are available again.

Pristine Schumann Brahms

HDTT Schumann - stereo

[Gordon]

Not quite sure whether this is wise but my own attempts at Schnabel's Beethoven Sonatas (9 of them) are at

http://www.cliveheathmusic.co.uk/vinyl.php

Brickbats or Bouquets?

Thanks Clive, nice site, wise or not, thanks for the link!! I could spend all day in there.

I listened first to your Beethoven/Schnabel E flat sonata which is one of my favourites and thought that the piano came over very well. From memory those sonatas were all recorded in Studio 3, the small one at Abbey Road, but I could be wrong, between 1933 and 1936. I'd have to find the EMI box and booklet. The noise level is well down but I have say that I found the "modem burbling" a little distracting. It is more apparent on headphones than on full range speakers. The artifact is not unlike a compression algorithm. I think I'd prefer more hiss. I doubt if MP3 at 320 would account for it because the other material that I have listened to - see below - doesn't have it and some of that is quite noisy which challenges compression. I will listen to the other sonatas, and some of the later vinyl too, later.

What was really fascinating, and I'd encourage everyone to have a listen, it's not long, is the comparison of the 6 versions of the same segment of a Schnabel Beethoven sonata to be found here at the bottom of the page. A range of transfer approaches can be heard with their results. They all come from the same Schnabel on 78 but we don't know the state of the discs used in each case nor do we know the transcription methods but at least Clive explains his!! His being last does exhibit this "modem" burbling that I refered to earlier. There is NO PRISTINE there!!

It's interesting how the piano sound varies slightly and as Clive says the background noise varies a lot. Starting at the bottom I'd first lose the Nuovo Era partly because of the rumble they left in but also because the piano is somewhat veiled but the noise is controlled if slightly clicky and one can hear the disc revs which none of the others does. Next to go would be the Pearl because the hiss is somewhat toppy and the piano sound not as well rounded as the others. The Naxos is quite noisy but I detect a slightly more open piano sound that the others, a bit more ambience perhaps. The Dante has nicely balanced piano and nicely controlled low noise level too although it fluctuates slightly. The EMI is close to this with lower noise but a slightly more boxy piano. So, of them all I'd prefer the Dante on balance. But ask me again tomorrow!! All of them have a good solid mono image and I got no sense of it wandering. I didn't detect any pitch issues either but I have not got perfect pitch. Clive's piano is good but those burbles disturb more than the hiss. I was looking for a bit more "singing" tone from the piano but I suppose the age of the recording and perhaps the acoustic [?] does not help that, not sure.

Those filtered verions are usful to see what's going on at the top. Really useful demo Clive, Thanks! I'll be back.

Finally on another subject you mention the BBC's LSO/Loughran Beethoven symphonies here. I think I remember these being broadcast and IIRC they were the work of Robert Simpson and the editions were at the time novel asking for smaller bands etc. Do you know the dates, must be before 1970? I used to have off air tapes made on a Revox of all of them [those days Wrotham had stereo] but somehow they've got mislaid somewhere and I don't have the Revox any more so it's good that you have posted nos 2 and 3. Any chance of doing them all!!! A bit hissy but no matter. The stereo is good and stable. Acoustic a bit close but it's probably Maida Vale.

[PJPJ]

Thanks Clive, nice site, wise or not, thanks for the link!! I could spend all day in there.

I listened first to your Beethoven/Schnabel E flat sonata which is one of my favourites and thought that the piano came over very well. From memory those sonatas were all recorded in Studio 3, the small one at Abbey Road, but I could be wrong, between 1933 and 1936. I'd have to find the EMI box and booklet. The noise level is well down but I have say that I found the "modem burbling" a little distracting. It is more apparent on headphones than on full range speakers. The artifact is not unlike a compression algorithm. I think I'd prefer more hiss. I doubt if MP3 at 320 would account for it because the other material that I have listened to - see below - doesn't have it and some of that is quite noisy which challenges compression. .......

I didn't listen on headphones so wasn't disturbed by the burble. Your comments on the various masterings coincide largely with mine. The boxy piano tone on the EMI set is disappointing. Rather than Schnabel's lovely Bechstein we are presented with something sounding like an old school piano with a broken frame. However, I prefer Pearl to Dante. In addition I also have the Japanese EMI Schnabel Edition, and Vol 1 of this:

78 experience

which are straight transfers of the shellac with only major imperfections edited out manually. People with equipment suitable for playing reproductions of 78s ay well be interested in investigating this label further. Lots of interesting material in the catalogue - no downloads, import CDRs from Canada.