Do we want to sit in the orchestra?

[silvestrione]

I was rather surprised to hear Julian Johnson in the Bruckner BAL enthusing about recordings that seemed to place you in the middle of the orchestra...this used to be a common criticism of some (e.g. over-miked) recordings. Isn't it more natural to have a sense of depth to the sound image, strings, then woodwind, than brass at the back, etc (as indeed on Karajan Bruckner recordings but also on e.g. Haitink's old recording of Schubert's Great C Major, which I've been playing).

Also, in current IRR, Michael Dutton makes interesting criticsims of what he sees as the current 'European standard' method of recording orchestras, and is particularly against violins left and right, which, with some other current habits, results in 'a vastly reduced stereo image and the sound lacks air and space'...

Is this why I so often find sound on CDs constricted compared with older recordings, e.g. on LP?

[Bryn]

On this one Mike Dutton appears to be using an orifice other than his mouth to do the talking. Violins left and right gives better stereo imagery, especially when the first and second violins are divided in musical content as well as space. Close miking is a bane, certainly, but that's a different matter altogether. Violins left and double basses right is more like a return to the days of the 'artificial stereo' era of the early '60s.

Regarding the issue of sitting in the middle of the performers, the "Real Surround" DVD Audio discs of the Auryn Quartet take it to a whole new level. Not only is the quartet arraigned around the listener, but there is an additional option to have the individual performers moving around as the recording producer feels fit for the musical content.

[Cellini]

I was rather surprised to hear Julian Johnson in the Bruckner BAL enthusing about recordings that seemed to place you in the middle of the orchestra...this used to be a common criticism of some (e.g. over-miked) recordings. Isn't it more natural to have a sense of depth to the sound image, strings, then woodwind, than brass at the back, etc (as indeed on Karajan Bruckner recordings but also on e.g. Haitink's old recording of Schubert's Great C Major, which I've been playing).

Also, in current IRR, Michael Dutton makes interesting criticsims of what he sees as the current 'European standard' method of recording orchestras, and is particularly against violins left and right, which, with some other current habits, results in 'a vastly reduced stereo image and the sound lacks air and space'...

Is this why I so often find sound on CDs constricted compared with older recordings, e.g. on LP?

A very interesting topic, silvestrione!

I have no wish to sit in the orchestra, as I've already done that for far too many years.

It is probably a dangerous technique to try with recordings, as it depends where you sit! You can be in danger of having too many trumpets, or trombones, or percussion - or whatever!!

And would a record producer/engineer know what sitting in an orchestra can sound like? Not often I would think.

I would tend to agee that having the second fiddles on the far right where the cellos often are, is probably not good for recording. I also think it a mistake having the violas there too, as sometimes happens.

The whole orchestral balance thing should be controlled by the conductor, and not the producer, in my opinion. Of course, the problem may be that we have few conductors able to do a good job these days. Ear syringing may become fashionable again and could lead to the odd competent conductor appearing on the scene again.

Hope you don't find this TOO cynical!!

Bryn, your post and mine crossed!

The reason I'm not too keen on the seconds or violas sitting on the far right is that their sound is going back into the orchestra and not out to the audience and mics. I'm not necessarily saying that it won't improve the stereo image. But the jury is probably still out on this one. However, stereo imaging can be over rated!!

Even more codswallop from me on the subject!!

Bryn - I'm not sure you can compare a string quartet in this instance to an orchestra. Personally I'm coming round to the idea that having the cello in the middle (where the viola normally sits) can be a good one, in a string quartet, like the Takacs do. But I think it depends on the violist having a big sound, which some don't, as the sound is directed towards the back rather than forwards. In the Takacs case they have a violist with a huge sound and a fantastic G B Guadanini viola.

Having said that, with the quartets I play in, we sit traditionally, partly because the viola plyers won't project enough in the outside position. But I might try it soon, just to see. (Or rather hear).

[Chris Newman]

I do so agree with you, Bryn. The first time I noticed this vast improvement from the left/right violins was when I first heard Adrian Boult conduct at Dorking Halls in the sixties. A few months later at the Proms Boult demonstrated the added playfulness between them in Schubert's Great C Major Symphony and Holst's Planets, to name just two works, was so striking. Also basses, cellos and violas seem richer when centralised.The occasional dip in clarity of the stereo when the two violin sections play in unison is a very small price to pay for the glory when they are doing different things. Whether he was at the Albert Hall, Covent Garden, the London Coliseum or the Festival Hall Boult elicited an extra special sound from many different orchestras. I know that the practice predated Boult but I am so pleased that a number of younger conductors do this these days.

[Bryn]

Bryn, your post and mine crossed!

The reason I'm not too keen on the seconds or violas sitting on the far right is that their sound is going back into the orchestra and not out to the audience and mics.

Not if the second violins are all cack-handed, Cellini.

[Ferretfancy]

I remember a quadraphonic LP of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra conducted by Bernstein,which deliberately attempted to place the audience around the listener, even going so far as to print position chart on the sleeve! Because SQ Quadraphonic sound was so poor, the effect was meaningless.
I use a Meridian system which provides realistic rear channel ambience on conventional stereo material, or the stereo layer of SACD discs, and I find it impressive. The music is still on the front stage, as in a concert, but I get a realistic "Hall effect" with no anomalies. This was difficult to achieve before digital techniques arrived. Oddly, Meridian do not approve of SACD on the grounds that it is over engineered.
I've just been listening to some Vienna Octet recordings from the late fifties, beautifully balanced with accurate positional information in an open acoustic. Perhaps the musicians are a little close, but this is surely preferable to some of the flabby sounding orchestral recordings made in over reverberant churches which we encounter too often today.
As for divided violins, I can think of plenty of recordings where this is done without significant loss of separation, and I usually prefer it in the concert hall, I find myself wondering why it seems so difficult for today's engineers to produce transparent sound, not too close, not too distant, when their predecessors in the 50s and 60s achieved it so regularly.

[Cellini]

Not if the second violins are all cack-handed, Cellini.

All second fiddles are cack handed!!!

[PJPJ]

I remember a quadraphonic LP of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra conducted by Bernstein,which deliberately attempted to place the audience around the listener, even going so far as to print position chart on the sleeve! Because SQ Quadraphonic sound was so poor, the effect was meaningless.

Indeed - I had an early SQ decoder and a 4 channel Marantz amp and couldn't really tell the difference between the sound produced that way or by a simple Hafler effort.

[Cellini]

My SQ decoder went tits up and now has become 16 channel and Hafler has left in a huff.

[Cellini]

Regarding the issue of sitting in the middle of the performers, the "Real Surround" DVD Audio discs of the Auryn Quartet take it to a whole new level. Not only is the quartet arraigned around the listener, but there is an additional option to have the individual performers moving around as the recording producer feels fit for the musical content.

I tried to down load some Haydn from the Tacet site who **appear** to do downloads, but nothing would allow it.

The Auryn Quartet sound interesting from a Youtube clip I watched and heard today even if the first fiddle was having a very slight bow contact problem ... (Not enough to be cack handed though!!) Of course, they did use vibrato - but all under control I think.

[Bryn]

I tried to down load some Haydn from the Tacet site who **appear** to do downloads, but nothing would allow it.

The Auryn Quartet sound interesting from a Youtube clip I watched and heard today even if the first fiddle was having a very slight bow contact problem ... (Not enough to be cack handed though!!) Of course, they did use vibrato - but all under control I think.

I rather like their Beethoven. Well judged vibrato in Beethoven string quartet playing, I can take. The trouble is, if, via disc, you want to hear them playing as if on stage, you either have to buy the double CDs or let your DVD Audio player do its own 2 channel mix down from the 5 surround channels (at least the DVD Audio is 5.0, rather than 5.1). There is no 2 channel layer on the DVD Audio discs, just a choice of "Real Surround Sound" or "Moving Real Surround Sound". Having taken the plunge with both the CD and DVD Audio version of the first 3 volumes (and just the CD version of Volume 4, which was all that was available then) a couple of year ago, I am currently awaiting delivery of the DVD Audio disc of Volume 4.

By the way, I was using "cack-handed" in the sense of "southpaw" rather than "incompetent".

[Cellini]

Far be it for me to call a second violin incompetent!! They are worth their weight in gold in orchestras and quartets. Some of my best friends are/were second violinists.

My CD player is not state of the art, in fact its not state of anything, and makes funny noises when a CD is not in place. But for £39 what can one expect! So I imagine the Tacet CD's won't work, and they are too expensive anyway. If downloads were possible and cheap I might have go.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Bryn - I'm not sure you can compare a string quartet in this instance to an orchestra. Personally I'm coming round to the idea that having the cello in the middle (where the viola normally sits) can be a good one, in a string quartet, like the Takacs do. But I think it depends on the violist having a big sound, which some don't, as the sound is directed towards the back rather than forwards. In the Takacs case they have a violist with a huge sound and a fantastic G B Guadanini viola.

Having said that, with the quartets I play in, we sit traditionally, partly because the viola plyers won't project enough in the outside position. But I might try it soon, just to see. (Or rather hear).

Cellini: you might appreciate the Herold Quartet of Prague. Their violist sits opposite the leader but plays with his instrument pointing straight down the hall even when he's looking at his colleagues. He never looks at his instrument (a violist who really knows where all the notes are??) Perhaps you'd still want to sit on the left side of the hall for optimal balance?

Seriously, they are a very good quartet all round, with an unusually strong violist.

[Cellini]

Cellini: you might appreciate the Herold Quartet of Prague. Their violist sits opposite the leader but plays with his instrument pointing straight down the hall even when he's looking at his colleagues. He never looks at his instrument (a violist who really knows where all the notes are??) Perhaps you'd still want to sit on the left side of the hall for optimal balance?

Seriously, they are a very good quartet all round, with an unusually strong violist.

I will look out for them. The way you describe the violist sitting I would imagine his sound might work well, but it might be harder to keep in contact with the cello and second violin.

In fact all string players should know where all the notes are and never need to look. I had this discussion on another forum recently and was surprised when some even fairly competent professional teachers and players admitted that they needed sometimes to look at their fingers!! It's totally the wrong way, in my opinion, and this I think is demonstrated by the way most of the really outstanding players perform.

[PaulT]

Talking of sitting in the orchestra I almost did that few months ago when Herbert Blomstedt conducted Bruckner 5 at the Salle Pleyel in Paris. I was a bit slow off the mark buying a ticket and the only seats available were in the front row of the stalls. Fortunately it was in the centre but I hadnt realised how close the front row was and as I took my seat I seemed to be positioned right under the conductor's backside. It was so close - about 8 feet away - I could only see the conductor and the first row of violins and cellos and was dreading what the sound was going to be like in this massive symphony. I need not have worried. The sound balance was amazingly good although rather too loud for comfort. It would not be my first choice of seating but I would do it again if I had to. To say I felt totally involved in the performance is an understatement. The good news is I was totally bowled over by Blomstedt's and the recent Querstand CD confirms my concert impression that this was one of the finest performances of the 5th I have heard.