HIP Mendelssohn symphonies - recommendations?

[richardfinegold]

LMP: what you say or imply here highlights something that I've encountered elsewhere from people who question the value of HIPP - first that there is a "HIPP 'manifesto'" (if there is such a thing, I have never encountered it - perhaps my collection of Karajan recordings disbars me from access to it?) and second that someone making a statement that "[Mendelssohn's] Musicians didn't play Modern instruments, nor have some Modern playing techniques, nor were as large as some of the Modern Professional Orchestras which have recorded this repertoire" isn't a statement of fact, but is really some kind of code behind which somebody actually means that modern orchestras should be banned from playing Mendelssohn. Or, at the very least, that "didn't ... have some Modern playing techniques" becomes "understood" as an "assumption that everything in modern ... playing styles has to be questioned."

Of course you are not saying or implying any such "code"; but it's interesting that you raise such points in your post in response to my response to rfg's questioning why anyone should want a HIPP recording of this repertoire. The simple answer to this question is "because it sounds different and because it affords us new perspectives on the timbres and balances that composers were acquainted with and were expecting to hear from the instruments for which they wrote."

"Properly preserved babies"?

I agree with LMP and will not redundantly restate his position. As to which recordings I base my opinions on, I frankly don't own many, as I have not found them to my taste. Norrington's Berlioz turned me off the concept, and what I have heard of his forays into later Composers reinforced my opinion.
I do like Thomas Dausgaard's Schumann, and Manze's Brahms cycle, but they are using smaller Orchestras, faster tempos and modern instruments. This to me retains the baby with the bath water.

[MickyD]

I know it is not part of the symphonies, but mention should be made of the disc of the Midsummer Night's Dream music recorded by Philippe Herreweghe and the Orchestre des Champs Elysées, complete with choral parts.

[LeMartinPecheur]

LMP: what you say or imply here highlights something that I've encountered elsewhere from people who question the value of HIPP - first that there is a "HIPP 'manifesto'" (if there is such a thing, I have never encountered it - perhaps my collection of Karajan recordings disbars me from access to it?) and second that someone making a statement that "[Mendelssohn's] Musicians didn't play Modern instruments, nor have some Modern playing techniques, nor were as large as some of the Modern Professional Orchestras which have recorded this repertoire" isn't a statement of fact, but is really some kind of code behind which somebody actually means that modern orchestras should be banned from playing Mendelssohn. Or, at the very least, that "didn't ... have some Modern playing techniques" becomes "understood" as an "assumption that everything in modern ... playing styles has to be questioned."

Of course you are not saying or implying any such "code"; but it's interesting that you raise such points in your post in response to my response to rfg's questioning why anyone should want a HIPP recording of this repertoire. The simple answer to this question is "because it sounds different and because it affords us new perspectives on the timbres and balances that composers were acquainted with and were expecting to hear from the instruments for which they wrote."

"Properly preserved babies"?

fhg: I don't want to create a non-existent dichotomy, or war Let me say unequivocally that I'm really glad that HIPP has shaken up performance and much 'early' and not so early music. I think what I was attempting to highlight was a kind of quasi-scientific mindset that assumes that if there is no firm evidence for something, then it didn't exist and shouldn't be done when performing old music today. I do think that this leads to some over-motoric, under-inflected, unemotional performance styles today.

Over a pint I might well develop a thesis that this is due to modern society, led by a belief in 'science', 'evidence', 'hard facts', over-valuing the cool and objective in all sorts of areas where there really are important alternatives based on the subjective, personal, emotional. Rather as if we aren't allowed our own tastes any more!

This doesn't matter a tinker's cuss about my subjective, personal, emotional stuff, but I think it can put a stupid straitjacket on public performers. And I say all this as a person whose mindset is fundamentally cool, objective and scientific. But I don't (in this area at least) follow the principle that if a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing to excess!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'd be delighted to join you in that pint, LMP (if the glass is large enough) - but I don't think that "over-motoric, under-inflected, unemotional performance styles" (which certainly exist) have anything to do with genuine HIPP research any more than over sentimentalised, congested, snail's-pace performance styles are "typical" of pre-HIPP performance. In both cases, it's more a case of just poor Musicianship. (And, of course, one listener's "over-motoric"/"over-sentimentalised" etc are another's ideal performance!) Where I think I would disagree is in the "stupid straitjacket on public performers", as I've never encountered this: in fact, in the 18 years I've lived here, I've never heard a Live (not counting broadcast) performance of a Beethoven/Schubert/Mozart/Haydn/Mendelssohn Piano Sonata played on anything other than a modern instrument, nor a String Quartet or Symphony for that matter. If the straitjacket does exist, it's pretty ineffective as far as performers are concerned. Thankfully. (If it were not so, I'm the sort who'd be out demanding Wagner tubas in the B minor Mass! )

I'm actually quite fond of a little excess in the Arts, now and then: just before Christmas I played the Beecham/Goosens Messiah and adored every minute of it!

[LeMartinPecheur]

I'd be delighted to join you in that pint, LMP (if the glass is large enough) - but I don't think that "over-motoric, under-inflected, unemotional performance styles" (which certainly exist) have anything to do with genuine HIPP research any more than over sentimentalised, congested, snail's-pace performance styles are "typical" of pre-HIPP performance. In both cases, it's more a case of just poor Musicianship. (And, of course, one listener's "over-motoric"/"over-sentimentalised" etc are another's ideal performance!) Where I think I would disagree is in the "stupid straitjacket on public performers", as I've never encountered this: in fact, in the 18 years I've lived here, I've never heard a Live (not counting broadcast) performance of a Beethoven/Schubert/Mozart/Haydn/Mendelssohn Piano Sonata played on anything other than a modern instrument, nor a String Quartet or Symphony for that matter. If the straitjacket does exist, it's pretty ineffective as far as performers are concerned. Thankfully. (If it were not so, I'm the sort who'd be out demanding Wagner tubas in the B minor Mass! )

I'm actually quite fond of a little excess in the Arts, now and then: just before Christmas I played the Beecham/Goosens Messiah and adored every minute of it!

fhg: happy to hear that the straitjacket isn't too tight! But do you not recognize the current climate in concert and disc reviews, where anything unusual, non-textbook, agogic, personal is highly suspect, and for recordings almost automatically debars it as a 'library' choice, many BaLs not excepted? OK, I exaggerate slightly...

Re the 'large enough' pint, see my recent Pedants' Paradise posting about an offer apparently set to give me c.£50K in free drinks down my local...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But do you not recognize the current climate in concert and disc reviews, where anything unusual, non-textbook, agogic, personal is highly suspect, and for recordings almost automatically debars it as a 'library' choice, many BaLs not excepted? OK, I exaggerate slightly...

We're getting rather off-topic here, but as the Thread is three years old and only on its second page, perhaps a diversion might draw attention back to it. No, I don't recognize the situation as you describe it - I disagree with many (sometimes it seems "most") of the choices made on BaL, but I don't believe that these choices are made to conform to a "current climate" any more (or less) than the choices made forty years ago reflected the "current climate" then. General reviews in CD Review cover a wide range of repertoire and performance styles with enthusiasm and indifference shared evenly. With BaL, the reviewer has to make a decision about which single recording best represents the piece under consideration. Preference for most people under 50 with a Musical training (reviewers and performers) is for HIPP to a greater or lesser degree - just as Richard Osborne and his contemporaries in 1980 wouldn't have selected a recording made in 1945 (even if appreciative of the merits of many such performances) so it shouldn't be expected for a forty-year-old reviewer today to choose recordings made in the '70s on a regular basis. (Nor to expect performers to play the same way that their forebears did - any more than actors still perform like Richard Burton or Celia Johnson. The joy for those of us who enjoy these performances - and there is already a vast difference between the HIP performance styles of today from those of 30 or 50 years ago - is the wide variety of individuality that can arise.)

Re the 'large enough' pint, see my recent Pedants' Paradise posting about an offer apparently set to give me c.£50K in free drinks down my local...

Wow! A whole month's worth?!

[jayne lee wilson]

fhg: happy to hear that the straitjacket isn't too tight! But do you not recognize the current climate in concert and disc reviews, where anything unusual, non-textbook, agogic, personal is highly suspect, and for recordings almost automatically debars it as a 'library' choice, many BaLs not excepted? OK, I exaggerate slightly...

Re the 'large enough' pint, see my recent Pedants' Paradise posting about an offer apparently set to give me c.£50K in free drinks down my local...

Rob Cowan in Gramophone, 4/14, on that Musikkollegium Winterthur/Zehetmair coupling of 1 & 5 I referenced above in msg 11:

"A very distinctive coupling this, stylised in the extreme and with a keen-eared approach to dynamics that is quite unlike anyone else's..."

All this and HIPPS too - things have moved on a bit, LMP... to wit, Nezet-Seguin or Ticciati in Schumann, Harnoncourt with "Mozart's Instrumental Oratorium", Venzago in Bruckner, and a spectacular Schubert 3 & 4 with the Freiburg Baroque and Heras-Casado... all very sharply individualised...

and all (mostly) well heard and received (not only by me)....

[LeMartinPecheur]

fhg and jlm: I defer to your combined wisdom and retreat in disarray, albeit not 100% persuaded

rfg: thanks for your support!

[Karafan]

Interesting replies to a rather arthritic post! I have added the Norrington Mendelssohn to my listening list and must also agree that the Herrweghe Midsummer Night's Dream CD is treasurable. The recommendations for Mackerras in the Italian have certainly been borne out - what a cracking disc!

I shall be dipping a toe in the water with the Heras-Casado Schubert JLW (thanks!) and looking further into the Musikkollegium Winterthur/Zehetmair recordings you recommended (was it only 1&5 you bought?).

K.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

fhg and jlm: I defer to your combined wisdom and retreat in disarray, albeit not 100% persuaded

Listen to other ideas, by all means, but don't defer if you don't really believe all that "under 50" stuff...