An Irish Symphony

[A Robyn]

this is the only youTube recording of the entire symphony; it may be less frustrating to go to the individual movements that are scattered around the youniverse

There's a youtube "auto-generated" playlist of the whole recording (plus A Comedy Overture) in "HD" (= 192 kbps) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8v4...R89V2V8NLD-FPw. (It helps to have an adblocker installed.)

[seabright]

George Weldon recorded an LP entitled "A Holiday in Britain" which featured just the 'Scherzo.' On the strength of that (click the link below) he ought to have recorded the whole work. Incidentally, does anyone remember Weldon these days? He seems to have been a first-rate conductor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9t-M5Z-oUM

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There's a youtube "auto-generated" playlist of the whole recording (plus A Comedy Overture) in "HD" (= 192 kbps) here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8v4...R89V2V8NLD-FPw. (It helps to have an adblocker installed.)

[EdgeleyRob]

Listened to Hamilton Harty's symphony today - great fun and much more fun than Stanford's version with its Brahms borrowings .
Looking at the proms archive it seems the last time it was performed was in 1930 ! Nothing by Harty since 1951 .

It's obviously inspired by Brahms 4 and the slow movement theme of that work appears in Stanford's 3rd movement(although I think CVS said it was an unconscious borrowing).
IMO it's mainly pure Stanford and contains plenty of Irish traditional and folk tunes

[Barbirollians]

It's obviously inspired by Brahms 4 and the slow movement theme of that work appears in Stanford's 3rd movement(although I think CVS said it was an unconscious borrowing).
IMO it's mainly pure Stanford and contains plenty of Irish traditional and folk tunes

Maybe - but when I first heard it I was so stunned by the " borrowing " that it was pretty much all I took away from the work . Perhaps a Harty. Stanford Sullivan comparison should be considered .

[EdgeleyRob]

Thank you. Interesting. I've listened to it all this morning. I feel it is a spirited if mild and somewhat formal romp through Irishness rather than something of considerable romance, nuance, tenderness and delicacy. Nevertheless, it is what it is and it works if one meets it on its own terms. I like it. One thing that surprises me is the absence of significant Irish composers historically in comparison to many other countries. I feel we should hear more of those who did make a contribution and would welcome more on the radio etc by Harty.

Plenty to enjoy in the symphonies of John Kinsella Lat.
Well I think so

[Pabmusic]

It's obviously inspired by Brahms 4 and the slow movement theme of that work appears in Stanford's 3rd movement(although I think CVS said it was an unconscious borrowing).
IMO it's mainly pure Stanford and contains plenty of Irish traditional and folk tunes

I suspect CVS was a little disingenuous. Or a lot. The chronology was this: Brahms's 4th appeared in October 1885 and Stanford was excited. Joachim wrote to CVS, "You should have heard the Brahms new symphony...what a work!". CVS replied, "I burn to hear the Brahms. I hope we shall in the summer as Richter has promised it [at a London concert]." Richter did perform it in London on 10 May 1886. We don't know that CVS attended, but the likelihood must be that he did (he lived in London and worked at the RCM). In any case, he immediately began sketching his 3rd symphony, finishing the first movement on 5 June. Composition was interrupted by other commitments (especially at Cambridge, where CVS was Professor of Music) and he didn't complete it till Easter 1887. Richter performed it on 27 June at the St James Hall (where he'd given the Brahms the previous year). It was performed in many places over the next few months, including Hamburg and Berlin (with von Bulow) and at the very first concert of the newly formed Concertegebouw Orchestra (with Mengleberg).

It is fairly clear that CVS was a bit touchy about that theme in the slow movement, because he tried hard to explain it was coincidental. He had a note included in the score quoting the phrase and saying that it was from an old Irish tune, The Lament of the Sons of Usnacht. He wrote that Brahms's and his symphonies had been written contemporaneously, each composer having no knowledge of the other's work - which was just not true. He also wrote that he had come across the melody in the "Petrie collection". It's a pity, therefore, that no-one else has been able to find it. Petrie's Collection of the Ancient Music of Ireland (1855) doesn't have it.*

I doubt that CVS deliberately copied Brahms - composers usually acknowledge such intentional borrowings. It's more likely a case of a theme of Brahms setting CVS's creative spirit alight.

* [It does have the Londonderry Air, which could be a sort of parallel case. It may not have been a folk tune at all - it is quite possibly a tune written by Katherine Ross of Limavady, who sent it to Petrie. 160 years of musicology have failed to uncover any variants of such a memorable tune, nor found any record of it, before 1855. (Well, there is a tune in a book from the 1790s that has some similarities, but it's the only one and, if it is connected, may mean nothing more than that Katherine Ross knew it and let it influence her in 'creating' the rather different tune we know today.]

[Edit] I've found this, The Young Man's Dream, the 18th-century harp melody trumpeted as the 'missing' Londonderry Air prototype.



It's clearly has some similarities. But it's quite different, too. And its existence in the 1790s doesn't help explain the dearth of sightings between it and Katherine Ross's Petrie version.

Here's the page from Petrie:

[EdgeleyRob]

I suspect CVS was a little disingenuous. Or a lot. The chronology was this: Brahms's 4th appeared in October 1885 and Stanford was excited. Joachim wrote to CVS, "You should have heard the Brahms new symphony...what a work!". CVS replied, "I burn to hear the Brahms. I hope we shall in the summer as Richter has promised it [at a London concert]." Richter did perform it in London on 10 May 1886. We don't know that CVS attended, but the likelihood must be that he did (he lived in London and worked at the RCM). In any case, he immediately began sketching his 3rd symphony, finishing the first movement on 5 June. Composition was interrupted by other commitments (especially at Cambridge, where CVS was Professor of Music) and he didn't complete it till Easter 1887. Richter performed it on 27 June at the St James Hall (where he'd given the Brahms the previous year). It was performed in many places over the next few months, including Hamburg and Berlin (with von Bulow) and at the very first concert of the newly formed Concertegebouw Orchestra (with Mengleberg).

It is fairly clear that CVS was a bit touchy about that theme in the slow movement, because he tried hard to explain it was coincidental. He had a note included in the score quoting the phrase and saying that it was from an old Irish tune, The Lament of the Sons of Usnacht. He wrote that Brahms's and his symphonies had been written contemporaneously, each composer having no knowledge of the other's work - which was just not true. He also wrote that he had come across the melody in the "Petrie collection". It's a pity, therefore, that no-one else has been able to find it. Petrie's Collection of the Ancient Music of Ireland (1855) doesn't have it.*

I doubt that CVS deliberately copied Brahms - composers usually acknowledge such intentional borrowings. It's more likely a case of a theme of Brahms setting CVS's creative spirit alight.

* [It does have the Londonderry Air, which could be a sort of parallel case. It may not have been a folk tune at all - it is quite possibly a tune written by Katherine Ross of Limavady, who sent it to Petrie. 160 years of musicology have failed to uncover any variants of such a memorable tune, nor found any record of it, before 1855. (Well, there is a tune in a book from the 1790s that has some similarities, but it's the only one and, if it is connected, may mean nothing more than that Katherine Ross knew it and let it influence her in 'creating' the rather different tune we know today.]

[Edit] I've found this, The Young Man's Dream, the 18th-century harp melody trumpeted as the 'missing' Londonderry Air prototype.



It's clearly has some similarities. But it's quite different, too. And its existence in the 1790s doesn't help explain the dearth of sightings between it and Katherine Ross's Petrie version.

Here's the page from Petrie:

Brilliant Pabmusic,many thanks

[teamsaint]

Plenty to enjoy in the symphonies of John Kinsella Lat.
Well I think so

I enjoyed that ER, very dramatic, and the interest kept up.

[EdgeleyRob]

I enjoyed that ER, very dramatic, and the interest kept up.

I think so too.

I can recommend this recording of symphonies 5 & 10.
No 5 takes some getting used to IMO with it's spoken word part,but contains some very fine music.
No 10 is the best piece of the few I know by JK.

[Barbirollians]

After hearing the superb Lloyd-Jones recording on Naxos I take back my criticism of the Sullivan symphony not that it sounds particularly Irish in this reading - just lots of good tunes well orchestrated .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[Barbirollians]

Despite all manner of Sullivan arrangements having been performed at the Proms the symphony has never been played .

[akiralx]

There must be more music there fhgl - the symphony is about 30 minutes long.

Yes, Thomson's Chandos reading is just under 35 mins.

[seabright]

Interesting to have three "Irish" Symphonies on You Tube ...

Sullivan's played by the BBC PO under Hickox ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9irmDpqDSs

Stanford's with the Ulster Orchestra and Handley ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ71SCI6ua0

Harty's with the Ulster Orchestra under Thomson ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3PylSkxwY4

Maybe someone should do what Manze did with some of the RVW symphonies and play all three in one Prom concert!