TOSCANINI London 1952

[Guest]

Can anyone through some light on whether the recent Pristine Audio downloads of Toscanini's Brahms Cycle at the RFH in London in 1952 are any better, or significantly better than the Testament CDs that were issued in 2000.
They are also offered in an ambient stereo sound.
I would be interested to hear various views on this.

[verismissimo]

I heard some test Pristine transfers recently and thought they sounded as though they had been passed through cotton wool. I'd be interested in boarders experience of Pristine transfers.
My experience of Testament's transfers has always been excellent.

[salymap]

Don't know the answer to that but I got RIGHT TO THE HEAD OF THE QUEUE for tickets in 1952 and they ran out.

Still upsets me to think about what I missed.

[slarty]

That's a tough one Saly, even now. I can't think of anything worse than being next in line, and then the box office brings the shutters down(so to speak)

Anyway here are my own thoughts on this -

I have been listening to an A/B comparison with the Tragic Ov. from the Testament and the Pristine sample. The Pristine has added reverberation and the sound is a little boomier especially in the loud passages. It sounds a little false. The quiet passages are better, but because Pristine has removed all of the hiss, there is less air around the string sound. The sense of immediacy is gone, and very curiously and cleverly Andrew Rose has transferred the recordings at an almost imperceptably higher pitch, giving it a slightly brighter sound - very naughty! OR - is he using today's variable European Pitch to judge a 61 year old recording.

This is becoming a problematic area. Today's Pitch is higher amongst certain orchestras than 60 years ago and it seems to be getting higher still.
This is actually a good idea for a thread, or has it already been done?

I think that the HMV (Legge) recordings stand the test of time.

I don't see the need to change to the Pristine.

[makropulos]

Can anyone through some light on whether the recent Pristine Audio downloads of Toscanini's Brahms Cycle at the RFH in London in 1952 are any better, or significantly better than the Testament CDs that were issued in 2000.
They are also offered in an ambient stereo sound.
I would be interested to hear various views on this.

Opinions vary on what a good transfer is –but for what it's worth I think Pristine's done a tremendous job on these broadcasts, and I thought it a good deal better than Testament (and the numerous others who've tried). Pristine also gives the complete broadcasts (with the Boult interval talk and so on) which Testament does not –that's why it runs over 4 CDs.

[Gordon]

I agree with Makro here - I have 3 versions of those transfers: the "original" Hunt [CD 524, probably nla but perhaps there were other bootlegs as well], the Testament and the Pristine downloads and, of these, Pristine's sound is the most palatable to my ears. Who knows which is the most truthful though? The RFH was at that time dreadfully dry but then so was Studio 8H and so perhaps it suited Toscanini's recorded sound - so perhaps "Ambient Stereo" is a bit of an anachronism!!

A look at the list of the Philharmonia players on that occasion is an interesting read. Neville Marriner in the back desk of the 2nds to name but one!! Some had been in the BBCSO in his Queen's Hall concerts before the war.

PS: the notes with the Hunt set are far better than those with Testament and of course the Pristine download set has very little in the way of detailed notes. I can't lay my hands on the Testament set for the moment but I believe they were by Alan Sanders and that he mentions the contractual issues.

PPS: Slarty's remarks are interesting. Back then it is likely that tape machines rather than direct to disc was used by the BBC for the masters [AFAIK] - I don't think that these were EMI recordings but I may be wrong [I am = acording to Pristine these are "high quality EMI recordings produced by Walter Legge"

http://www.pristineclassical.com/pasc373.html - so why weren't they issued by EMI???

At that time the EMI machines probably used by the BBC, and used even by Decca for a while, were the old mono EMI BTR 1 which were notorious for speed irregularities and accuracy so that the end of a reel would be a different speed by several % [getting on for a semitone] from the start. A reel typically lasted about 20 minutes and no doubt two machines were used to overlap thereby introducing more pitch issues. So getting the speed right in a restoration would be hard. I presume Mr Rose used a tuning fork set to A? Slarty used the opening Tragic overture - that T confused with the 1st symphony after the National Anthem - try the pitch differences with the Tragic with the end of a symphony and see what happens. You can get them in mono as 16 bit FLACs - which version did you listen to?

Further, the recordings were never issued commercially by EMI for, I believe copyright reasons, so they never owned them OR decided they were not good enough. Legge's memoires talk about these concerts - he was the impressario for sure because of the wrangles with the RFH and the BBC over dates - but I don't remember if they say anything about the issuing of recordings - will check. Given the satisfaction expressed by Toscanini [despite the trombone fluffs and the fireworks] in working with the Philharmonia it is odd that they were not released at the time gven the market for them then.

Go here to hear the concerts!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRDZC_W0O6U

[Karafan]

And after the second concert, Legge recalls in his inimitably modest and self-deprecating way, "Toscanini embraced me, saying that if he were ten years younger he would have all his published records withdrawn and devote the rest of his life to recording his whole repertoire with me: I was the only man who had ever told him the truth about his work" ("On and off the record: a memoir of Walter Legge", Elisabeth Schwarzkopf. London, 1982, p.97).

[Bryn]

Re. tape speed variations, can these not be overcome by transferring at say 25% or perhaps 12.5% of the original speed and using the lowered pitch of the bias frequency as a reference? Sorry if this seems the wrong place for such matters.

[Gordon]

Re. tape speed variations, can these not be overcome by transferring at say 25% or perhaps 12.5% of the original speed and using the lowered pitch of the bias frequency as a reference? Sorry if this seems the wrong place for such matters.

First, IF the machines were EMI BTR 1s these did not use HF bias [at least when they were first made]. Anyway, the bias frequency [typically 80 kHz or so, higher in some later machines] is not recorded as such on the tape, the wavelength is too small and is only there to condition the record head/tape material [EMI's own tape] to its best B/H region to balance linearity with frequency response etc. Having said that, a whiff of non-linearity may well cause sub-harmonics of it but these would mix as intermods with the audio and add to the overall distortion.

However, if we are trying to get the original pitch and maintain it - we don't really know what the orchestra pitch was exactly - and the actual bias oscillator frequency is not a critical value and so the tolerance would not be precisely known even if the machine spec states a value. SO, all in all the bias frequency and acoustic pitch would not necessarily correlate.

Playing at reduced speed - say to 1/8th - would also reduce the bass frequencies by the same amount and so, say 100 Hz would move to 12.5 Hz, below audio pass band, and the EQ [some early tape machines didn't use it] would be wrong too [even if we know what it was supposed to be - no RIAA or the like for tape in those days] and so there would need to be some judicious tuning. Perhaps not insurmountable in this digital age.

Come to think of it, what machine did Testament/Pristine or EMI archives/Abbey Road - use to play the tapes back anyway???

[jayne lee wilson]

I heard some test Pristine transfers recently and thought they sounded as though they had been passed through cotton wool. I'd be interested in boarders experience of Pristine transfers.
My experience of Testament's transfers has always been excellent.

VERY surprised at this comment... I've bought many Pristine downloads in 24/48 and lossless, I've also had a few CDs-to-order and all have been technically excellent (to my infamously fussy ears) and usually better than previous labels' attempts. Andrew Rose is about as savvy as they come about these things. They usually use vinyl/shellac sources, occasionally tape or acetate. Where a label has remastered from original tapes they could conceivably do as well or better, but Pristine really know what they're doing. Loads of (readable!) tech info on their site too.

Which recordings troubled you so much?

[Karafan]

Apropos of nothing in the thread, that new profile pic is rather lovely, JLW! Maybe old Wilhelm could do with a makeover......

[Bryn]

Hmm, I raised the matter of using the bias frequency as a reference since I know the technique is employed by some restorers. As to the bias frequency not being recorded, my own accidental experience has demonstrated otherwise. Back in 1972 I recorded a concert by the Promenade Theatre Orchestra at The Orangery, Holland Park. The machine used was a Tandberg crossfield type. While fast forwarding the tape later, I somehow managed to depress first the left channel record button, then the right for a second or so each. When next played back the bias signal, now transposed down a few octaves of so, was heard a whistle. Around a decade of so ago I edited that recording for issue by the Experimental Music Catalogue. The rescue consisted of taking the extant signal for first the right, then the left channel and duplicating each in turn on the other. Not perfect, but at least the recorded performance is continuous, though with what sounds a little like changes in registration on an organ. Only one item on the disc was affected.

[Gordon]

VERY surprised at this comment... I've bought many Pristine downloads in 24/48 and lossless, I've also had a few CDs-to-order and all have been technically excellent (to my infamously fussy ears) and usually better than previous labels' attempts. Andrew Rose is about as savvy as they come about these things. They usually use vinyl/shellac sources, occasionally tape or acetate. Where a label has remastered from original tapes they could conceivably do as well or better, but Pristine really know what they're doing. Loads of (readable!) tech info on their site too.

Which recordings troubled you so much?

I agree with JW on this one, my experience of many Pristine files is that on the whole they are very good. One must take them for what they are, restorations of old material are compromises, and so restorers will vary in their choice of processing as will listeners in their taste.

In the case of these Toscanini recordings they were made almost 61 years ago [happy birthday at the end of the month!] and so the condition of that early tape formulation will be a bit fragile by now depending on how well it was stored and used since it was used. Oxide falls off easily, backing materials stretch under excess tension during play and especially winding, and self de-magnetisation can occur of the tapes are not kept at lowish temperatures. There are probably no edits to speak of. All in all going back to the tapes rather than some contemporary vinyl pressings [they preserve to some extent the factors that tapes may not over time] or metal masters. If EMI had intended these recordings to be sold they may have made some metal masters or even test pressings that may well be better than the tapes?

[slarty]

From my researches and from people I knew, who were much closer to the source than I, the main reason they were never issued back then was because HMV could not get clearance to release these recordings. RCA had exclusivity over all things Toscanini. Legge had exclusivity over the Philharmonia and that was that.
That is why they lay dormant for decades, similar to the saga of the Bayreuth 1955 Ring which suffered the same fate until Testament rescued it also.
Pristine have taken the BBC announcements from the original broadcasts - 29th Sept - Third Programme - Richard Baker and 1st October - Home Service - Frank Phillips and added them to the EMI recordings.
The so-called "original" issue on Hunt, mentioned in an earlier post, was a pirate CD issue, during the time when Italy had a 21 year copyright law, which was manna from heaven for all of those pirate LPs and later CDs, however the Toscanini Brahms Cycle came out on pirate LPs before that, circa 1974-5. There used to be a Record Shop called Ron's in London, which was the forerunner of MDC, which dealt heavily in these issues. That is where I bought it. The pressings were poor and the sound was dim - it was on four LPs and came in a black box.
Walter Legge's home was broken into in the early 70s and a great deal of his collection was stolen. Comprising tapes, test pressings, unpublished recordings ect, and within a
short time they started to filter out on LP.All of course from Italian companies. That is the most likely the source of the 1951 Bayreuth Festival Rheingold and Siegfried issues conducted by Karajan. Legge tried to have "Ron's" closed but because of the Italian law I mentioned earlier, his hands were tied.
As for the Pitch difference mentioned, the Tragic is in pitch from start to finish, however it is pitched slightly higher than the Testament. Were only talking about an eight of a tone, but it does alter the timing by a few seconds.
At the moment I have only compared the samples provided by Pristine, which may or may not be the ambient stereo files. I can't say. I need someone who has bought the
AS download to say whether the samples are or are not the same as what one buys.

[Gordon]

.... While fast forwarding the tape later, I somehow managed to depress first the left channel record button, then the right for a second or so each. When next played back the bias signal, now transposed down a few octaves of so, was heard a whistle....

Well, yes, of course it would - the head to tape speed in fast forward brings the bias oscillator wavelength longer on tape by an amount equal to the ratio of winding speed to normal. It would have worked in rewind too. Even if head contact in fast forward isn't as good as normal the record head field strength would be enough to spray bias at the tape. If that ratio was say 10x then a bias frequency of 80 kHz appears on tape as 8 kHz when replayed at normal speed. At 15 ips 80 kHz has a wavelength of 15/80 thou or about 5 micron. Whilst modern audio replay head gaps are typically set to extinction at this order of size, mostly in order to avoid excessive aperture loss, the all important record head has a much greater gap and that then holds several cycles of bias which is what it is intended to do**. If you were to increase the head to tape speed significantly without changing the head dimensions or the bias then the bias would eventually get recorded as well as the audio but would not be audible on playback [one can't hear 80 kHz].

The effect you suggest could work IF the bias oscillator was not pure enough and had subharmonics present but to be useful in pitch control these would have to be clean, ie unmodulated, and in the audio playback range of the machine and then you could hear them as background low level whistles anyway, given that they had not been smeared by intermods. I suspect that even those early tape professional machines did not have that poor a purity in the bias oscillator or in the record head circuits.

**: assuming the record head gap is an exact multiple of the bias wavelength, which can be engineered to be the case in order to suppress bias, there will be no remanent bias reaching the tape material via the head. However, if that is not the case, ie the bias and head gaps are not related there will be a remanent aperture effect that will leave some bias flux for the tape to capture. The amount will be given by about a [sinx/x] squared shape. This is equivalent to the "head bumps" feature of magnetic tape. That being so, some vestige of bias will get onto the tape BUT this will intermod with the audio and MAY be audible as a low level "whistle" or burbling during audio silence. Not really tolerable in professional machines, even old ones?