Schumann Symphonies Complete Set

[cloughie]

Hey, I love the Rhenish! Ceccato/Bamberg, Harnoncourt, Dausgaard and Zinman/Tonhalle for me. For me the 4th always feels the weakest, as if it never really reached a finished, or satisfying form. And I'm still not sure if I prefer 1841 or the revision. Personal preference for the other three all very close, probably 2,3,1. But not much in it!
The end of Ceccato's 3rd is one of Bamberg's finest moments!

The problem with the original version of No4 is that I had familiarised myself with the revised version long before and now when I hear the original it sounds like a work in progress - I suppose it was. I agree with your choice of No2 as favourite (and that there's not much in it) but it was the one I took longest to like - I particularly like Solti as I like the contrast of speeds for the second and fourth movements with the slow movement. Schumann has been criticised for his orchestration ability - my musical knowledge is not good enough to enter that argument - but his tunes are wonderful - maybe he was keen to write those down and think about the arrangement later.

[MickyD]

Herreweghe recorded all 4 Schumann Symphonies for HM. Unfortunately 2 and 4 are out of the catalogue and command crazy prices. Long overdue for a re-issue of all 4 in a double album, or even a threesome with the concertos.

I stand corrected, Bryn....but knowing only the concerto disc, what are your opinions regarding the performances of the four symphonies? Comparable to Goodman and Gardiner?

[Roehre]

The problem with the original version of No4 is that I had familiarised myself with the revised version long before and now when I hear the original it sounds like a work in progress - I suppose it was......

As I did, but with the 1851 version I've now got the feeling that Schumann chipped away too much details of the original sculpture Remarkable how different people react to similar experiences.

Structurally the 1841 version (The symphonic Phantasy) is much more exciting IMO, with a leaner orchestration as well - but that doesn't make the 1851 (symphony no.4) an inferior work. It's just a matter of taste, I guess

[amateur51]

As I did, but with the 1851 version I've now got the feeling that Schumann chipped away too much details of the original sculpture Remarkable how different people react to similar experiences.

Structurally the 1841 version (The symphonic Phantasy) is much more exciting IMO, with a leaner orchestration as well - but that doesn't make the 1851 (symphony no.4) an inferior work. It's just a matter of taste, I guess

I've only heard the earlier version once at a concert given by the Academy orchestra of Royal Academy of Music conducted by Trevor Pinnock and I found it quite disconcerting when familiar landmarks did not appear. I know and love the later version too much to be able to accept the earlier one - my loss.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

The problem with the original version of No4 is that I had familiarised myself with the revised version long before and now when I hear the original it sounds like a work in progress - I suppose it was.

- it's not dissimilar to the experience of hearing the first versions of Bruckner Symhonies: whole passages that are identical or so similar to the more familiar revisions that when they do something different it sounds "wrong". As Roehre says, much depends on familiarity; my problem is that the performances of the 1841 version that I know aren't a patch on the recordings of the 1851 revision by Furtwangler (in particular), Karajan or Kubelik.

I agree with your choice of No2 as favourite (and that there's not much in it) but it was the one I took longest to like

Exactly my experience, too: it was the first of the Schumann symphonies that I ever heard Live (the BBC Northern under Raymond Leppard, King George's Hall, Blackburn, 1976) and I found it terribly long-winded. Again, Karajan and Kubelik brought light to my befuddled bonce.

Schumann has been criticised for his orchestration ability - my musical knowledge is not good enough to enter that argument - but his tunes are wonderful - maybe he was keen to write those down and think about the arrangement later.

Certainly he made errors of judgement based on inexperience in the First Symphony (HIPP dilemma, do you play Mendelssohn's alterations of the opening trumpet fanfare, or - on modern instruments - do you play what Schumann actually wrote?), but a good conductor can bring Schumann's instrumental imagination to life without cheating: less problems of balance with instruments of the period and the orchestral forces that, say, Mendelssohn had at Schumann's disposal in Leipzig. The more I hear of Schumann's works with orchestra, the more I believe that the idea that his orchestrations were "faulty" is a myth.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

or that they were to be disregarded on account of his supposed medical issues [eg the violin concerto]

is no one but me interested in Gal? they are fine performances but the Swan and Wood do not stand beside Zinman with the Baltimore, a delightful set of music making; and now one can pursue another few versions eh?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

is no one but me interested in Gal? they are fine performances but the Swan and Wood do not stand beside Zinman with the Baltimore, a delightful set of music making; and now one can pursue another few versions eh?

By coincidence, the Swan/Wood CD is one of four new CDs including works by Gal (and isn't it lovely that Will & Kate have added their support) reviewed in the July issue of Tempo, which I received today. (A shock in itself; it's still July - they don't normally appear until the end of the month after that on the cover.) Paul Conway refers to these works as "a vital, late-flowering coda to the Austro-German classics ... the full extent of his well-crafted, often mordantly witty and intensely lyrical output is revealed to us." Definitely interested!

[slarty]

Surprisingly no one has as yet mentioned the Thielemann/Philharmonia cycle. I found it very satisfying. Kubelik's second set from 1979 with the Bavarians is also excellent.
The greatest single Schumann symphony recording has to be Furtwängler's fourth. Recorded in Berlin in 1953, having rehearsed the pertinent points, Furtwängler warned the engineers in advance to have enough tape in the machines, and he proceeded to perform the work from start to finish. No retakes or patches. It has stood the test of time admirably. I can't get into the scaled down versions that are so prevalent today. I find the larger orchestra much better balanced for a satisfying experience.
Best single version of number 2 would be Celibidache, he broadcast it many times, but avoid the one with the RAI Orchestra. It is not in the same class as the Munich or Stuttgart performances.

[PJPJ]

....
is no one but me interested in Gal? they are fine performances but the Swan and Wood do not stand beside Zinman with the Baltimore, a delightful set of music making; and now one can pursue another few versions eh?

I have collected a fair few discs of Gal's music, these symphonies not among them, sadly, as I really don't need another Schumann cycle, nor any more Schubert for that matter. I'm awaiting a release of a collection of the Gal symphonies on their own.

I was tempted purchase downloads of just the Gal portions, but unlike eclassical who charge by the minute, vendors of Avie price their tracks far more expensively and buyers save not very much by rejecting the Schumann.

[Roehre]

I have collected a fair few discs of Gal's music, these symphonies not among them, sadly, as I really don't need another Schumann cycle,..... I'm awaiting a release of a collection of the Gal symphonies on their own.

That sounds very familiar
(and please don't forget Gal's excellent little book on Brahms)

[PJPJ]

That sounds very familiar
(and please don't forget Gal's excellent little book on Brahms)

Is that me repeating myself? Oops!

A book I do have is Gal's slim volume (+ disc) about his time in a camp on the Isle of Man during the War. Well worth acquiring.

[Bryn]

I stand corrected, Bryn....but knowing only the concerto disc, what are your opinions regarding the performances of the four symphonies? Comparable to Goodman and Gardiner?

Ah, while I am aware of their existence, I have yet to hear the Herreweghe Schumann Symphonies. I too have just the two concertos, and very good indeed they are, to my ears.

[Barbirollians]

Surprisingly no one has as yet mentioned the Thielemann/Philharmonia cycle. I found it very satisfying. Kubelik's second set from 1979 with the Bavarians is also excellent.
The greatest single Schumann symphony recording has to be Furtwängler's fourth. Recorded in Berlin in 1953, having rehearsed the pertinent points, Furtwängler warned the engineers in advance to have enough tape in the machines, and he proceeded to perform the work from start to finish. No retakes or patches. It has stood the test of time admirably. I can't get into the scaled down versions that are so prevalent today. I find the larger orchestra much better balanced for a satisfying experience.
Best single version of number 2 would be Celibidache, he broadcast it many times, but avoid the one with the RAI Orchestra. It is not in the same class as the Munich or Stuttgart performances.

I only have Thielemann's Second which as I recall got a very favourable review in Gramophone but a number of others put the boot in on grounds of tempi especially of the slow movement . I liked it but I can hear why others didn't - it is very Romantic .

[cloughie]

I only have Thielemann's Second which as I recall got a very favourable review in Gramophone but a number of others put the boot in on grounds of tempi especially of the slow movement . I liked it but I can hear why others didn't - it is very Romantic .

I would guess at current asking prices you'll not be seeking the rest! A bargain set is overdue!

[richardfinegold]

or that they were to be disregarded on account of his supposed medical issues [eg the violin concerto]

is no one but me interested in Gal? they are fine performances but the Swan and Wood do not stand beside Zinman with the Baltimore, a delightful set of music making; and now one can pursue another few versions eh?

Have you heard his Cello Concerto?