Weber symphonies

[Tony Halstead]

I too have that old recording with the Belgian horn player Monsieuer Francis ORVAL doing a lovely job with the Weber Horn Concertino.
Although from the sound of it he clearly used a modern valved horn, it has to be said that Weber did indeed write it for the old, 'natural' / valveless horn, for the simply reason that the valve hadn't been invented at that time!
The low notes that you mention are well within the compass of the valve horn and can be achieved with some determined 'lip and jaw work' on the hand-horn/ natural horn 'crooked' in the key of E.
The most grotesque ( if that is the right word) sounds are heard where Weber writes CHORDS; these are sounded by the player SINGING or humming the upper note and playing the lower one. if the intonation is OK, the arithmetical sum of the two frequencies yield a higher 'heard' note ( a bit like the upper harmonics of a violin string or maybe the 'aliquot' strings of a Bluethner piano). There is another arithmetical equation - the difference between the two pitches ( the played and the sung one) which yields a lower note. IN theory the end result ought to be a 4-part chord but in practice this rarely happens!
I have played this piece only once 'in concert' nearly 30 years ago, and on that occasion unwisely attempted to play it on a 'natural' / valveless horn. never again!

[LeMartinPecheur]

...you also get the brilliant Anthony Halstead performance of the Horn Concertino too...a recording which often finds its way into my CD player when I need cheering up.

This sounds tempting even though I already have two recordings of the Concertino. One is the Tuckwell, very secure in the horn-chords. The other is Hermann Baumann on an old BASF LP c/w the Schoeck concerto and the Schumann Conzertstuck - quite a feast for any horn enthusiast. In those chords Baumann isn't quite as steady as Tuckwell but still well worth a listen.

I've never worked out how the main tune in the rondo finale of this work never reached No.1 in the hit parade I'm guessing MickyD that this might be a big part of its success in cheering you up?

[Tony Halstead]

I've never worked out how the main tune in the rondo finale of this work never reached No.1 in the hit parade

Perhaps because it covers a range of TWO OCTAVES...? Most 'hit parade' tunes stay within a measly range of a 6th or a 7th, hardly ever even an octave!

[Barbirollians]

Did Dennis Brain ever play the piece ?

[MickyD]

This sounds tempting even though I already have two recordings of the Concertino. One is the Tuckwell, very secure in the horn-chords. The other is Hermann Baumann on an old BASF LP c/w the Schoeck concerto and the Schumann Conzertstuck - quite a feast for any horn enthusiast. In those chords Baumann isn't quite as steady as Tuckwell but still well worth a listen.

I've never worked out how the main tune in the rondo finale of this work never reached No.1 in the hit parade I'm guessing MickyD that this might be a big part of its success in cheering you up?

Yes, that's quite right...the tune never fails to bring a smile to my face. But I have to say that it is also the deliciously earthy and rather rude sounds that Halstead gets out of the natural horn which makes all the difference. Do try to get hold of it, I'm sure you'll agree.

[Tony Halstead]

Did Dennis Brain ever play the piece ?

He didn't record it, I'm 99% sure, as I have all the published solo recordings that Dennis Brain ever made and it's not among them.
As to whether he played it in concert, I just don't know... maybe Hornspieler could shed some light on this?
It would be marvellous if someday an old BBC tape or 'acetate' of the Weber turned up, as happened a few years ago with the Gordon Jacob and York Bowen horn concertos as well as an electrifying Strauss 2nd concerto and Haydn 1st concerto, BBC studio recordings in the early 1950s with the BBC Welsh and BBC Midland Light Orchestras respectively.

[Ferretfancy]

He didn't record it, I'm 99% sure, as I have all the published solo recordings that Dennis Brain ever made and it's not among them.
As to whether he played it in concert, I just don't know... maybe Hornspieler could shed some light on this?
It would be marvellous if someday an old BBC tape or 'acetate' of the Weber turned up, as happened a few years ago with the Gordon Jacob and York Bowen horn concertos as well as an electrifying Strauss 2nd concerto and Haydn 1st concerto, BBC studio recordings in the early 1950s with the BBC Welsh and BBC Midland Light Orchestras respectively.

There might be a chance that acetate recordings of Dennis Brain might be lurking somewhere in the archives of the BBC, or possibly with an overseas broadcaster. Until the early sixties quite a few concerts were recorded in Broadcasting House from external sources on 16 inch acetate discs at 33/3 rpm, but using a 78 cutting stylus. This gave a playing time of about half an hour a side.

Transcription discs like these were sent for broadcast in hot countries as they survived better than the rather unreliable tape available then.

Waldhorn

Thank you so much for the information about the Weber Concertino, which I'll listen to again. On the same disc we have the delightful Andante and Hungarian Rondo for Bassoon, now there's a catchy finale! It;s been stuck in my brain for days !

[Hornspieler]

He didn't record it, I'm 99% sure, as I have all the published solo recordings that Dennis Brain ever made and it's not among them.
As to whether he played it in concert, I just don't know... maybe Hornspieler could shed some light on this?
It would be marvellous if someday an old BBC tape or 'acetate' of the Weber turned up, as happened a few years ago with the Gordon Jacob and York Bowen horn concertos as well as an electrifying Strauss 2nd concerto and Haydn 1st concerto, BBC studio recordings in the early 1950s with the BBC Welsh and BBC Midland Light Orchestras respectively.

I asked Dennis about this piece and whether he ever played it. I was intrigued because Aubrey, in one of my lessons, demonstrated that he (Aubrey) used to play those manufactured chords on the last three notes of the adagio in the 4th horn concerto (K495) and that the double concerto, written for Aubrey (and Jean Pougnet?) by Dame Ethel Smyth, also contained some "Weber" chords.

Anyway, Dennis said that he considered the Weber Concertino's musical value was not sufficient to justify the amount of practise to learn it (which did surprise me at the time) and I don't believe that he ever changed that view.

Anthony Halstead's recording with the Hanover Band is excellent - more remarkable is the fact that he was actually recording the two Weber Symphonies on a session and, when the producer said he had a lot of available capacity for his CDs, offered to play the Concertino, for which he just happened to have the orchestral parts in his horn case! Is that a true story? Well, I did hear it from a pretty reliable source.

I have never attempted to play a hand horn. Like any brass player, I can rattle off Weber's Hunting Chorus from Der Freischutz on a coiled up hosepipe with a parafin funnel stuck in the end, but I have quite small hands (I can wear my wife's gloves -NO! It stops there!) and I doubt if they would be much use for hand-stopping.

To return to the subject matter of this thread, I have that Hanover Band recording of the Weber Symphonies 1 & 2 and must agree with the posts above that they do not light much of a spark in my bosom. They could have been written by any imaginative young student as far as I am concerned, but those overtures - WOW!

HS

[salymap]

The more I read about playing the horn,the more I'm convinced it must be the most difficult instrument to master.

Singing and blowing, reading one note in the score, transposing, eeek, all I managed was the piano, rather badly.

Fascinating to learn that Dame Ethel wrote something that is still played. Our local celebrity.

And if only we knew what the BBC have mouldering in the basement. Tapes galore I should think.

[Hornspieler]

The more I read about playing the horn,the more I'm convinced it must be the most difficult instrument to master.

Singing and blowing, reading one note in the score, transposing, eeek, all I managed was the piano, rather badly.

Fascinating to learn that Dame Ethel wrote something that is still played. Our local celebrity.

And if only we knew what the BBC have mouldering in the basement. Tapes galore I should think.

Actually, I have often heard the "playing chords trick" from Trombone players. I believe that it is a trifle easier to do this on a trombone but whether this is because a trombone has a larger mouthpiece to sing /hum into or whether it is because the cylindrical bore of a trombone (as opposed to a horn's conical* bore) is acoustically more receptive, I have no idea.

Perhaps our friend Caliban has tried this trick at some time.

Can't do it on a trumpet unless you are a counter tenor or 'male alto'. Probably still would not work because too little tube length to play with.

HS

* Not to be confused with 'comical bore' although I have met a few of those.

[Barbirollians]

That Concerto for Violin and Horn turned up at the Proms a couple of years ago - there is a recording of it on Chandos and it is really an attractive piece as is the Serenade .

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ethel+smyth

[Barbirollians]

I asked Dennis about this piece and whether he ever played it. I was intrigued because Aubrey, in one of my lessons, demonstrated that he (Aubrey) used to play those manufactured chords on the last three notes of the adagio in the 4th horn concerto (K495) and that the double concerto, written for Aubrey (and Jean Pougnet?) by Dame Ethel Smyth, also contained some "Weber" chords.

Anyway, Dennis said that he considered the Weber Concertino's musical value was not sufficient to justify the amount of practise to learn it (which did surprise me at the time) and I don't believe that he ever changed that view.....

HS

That is fascinating - thanks so much HS .

[Hornspieler]

That is fascinating - thanks so much HS .

Hornspieler: ... Anyway, Dennis said that he considered the Weber Concertino's musical value was not sufficient to justify the amount of practise to learn it (which did surprise me at the time) and I don't believe that he ever changed that view.....

.........Thinking about this statement after all these years, it occurs to me that DB had a 'break' in his embouchure - a neccesary change of lip position on the mouthpiece - in order to play the lowest notes of the horn's compass.

I had a similar problem - as did Alan Civil, but not Barry Tuckwell or Anthony Halstead.

So those of us who were thus disadvantaged stuck to playing first, third (or fifth) horn parts which only rarely took us into the 'region of the bass clef'

Might that have been the real reason why Dennis elected not to play the Weber concertino?

We shall never know.

HS

[Barbirollians]

Ah those overtures indeed - I have recently acquired a copy of a CD reissue of a set of seven Weber overtures recorded in the late 1950s by the Philharmonia conducted by Sawallisch on EMI . Glorious playing and splendidly conducted in a remarkably good early stereo recording . Secondhand copies about in EMI Encore label .