Rachmaninov - Symphonic Dances: Last note!

[LaurieWatt]

This should come under my old nom-de-forum, 'Gongman', I suppose!
Also, if there is already a thread somewhere on this subject could our kind moderators please link us up!

This thread is prompted by the review last Saturday of Leonard Slatkin's recording with the Detroit SO where the last few bars conclude with the most spectacular tamtam ringing well after the rest of the orchestra's staccato chord has cut off. Absolutely wonderful!

However, given the ambiguity of Rachmaninov's manuscript, what do you extremely knowledgeable people think should be done here? Is Slatkin a travesty, which I slightly got the impression that Martin Cotton(?) thought?

I am, of course, a fervent enthusiast for letting it hang out as loud and long as possible, but then I would. However, I suggest that it is entirely pointless to have a staccato gong stroke unless it is hit very hard indeed, as it will simply not rise above the rest of the fortissimo orchestra. And, of course, I am used to Vladimir Jurowski with the LPO letting it fly in their great recording on the LPO label; I have not done a comparative list of who does and who doesn't; perhaps I should...

[verismissimo]

Rachmaninov's finest work?

[amateur51]

This should come under my old nom-de-forum, 'Gongman', I suppose!
Also, if there is already a thread somewhere on this subject could our kind moderators please link us up!

This thread is prompted by the review last Saturday of Leonard Slatkin's recording with the Detroit SO where the last few bars conclude with the most spectacular tamtam ringing well after the rest of the orchestra's staccato chord has cut off. Absolutely wonderful!

However, given the ambiguity of Rachmaninov's manuscript, what do you extremely knowledgeable people think should be done here? Is Slatkin a travesty, which I slightly got the impression that Martin Cotton(?) thought?

I am, of course, a fervent enthusiast for letting it hang out as loud and long as possible, but then I would. However, I suggest that it is entirely pointless to have a staccato gong stroke unless it is hit very hard indeed, as it will simply not rise above the rest of the fortissimo orchestra. And, of course, I am used to Vladimir Jurowski with the LPO letting it fly in their great recording on the LPO label; I have not done a comparative list of who does and who doesn't; perhaps I should...

Some fine gong-, tambourine- and castanet-work to be heard in last Friday's LPO/Jurowski concert at RFH, LaurieWatt - and microphones aplenty so I hope that a disc will be forthcoming in due course

[Pabmusic]

...given the ambiguity of Rachmaninov's manuscript, what do you extremely knowledgeable people think should be done here? Is Slatkin a travesty, which I slightly got the impression that Martin Cotton(?) thought?...

I haven't heard Slatkin, but know the work well (one of my all-time favourites) and love Previn's recording with the LSO, which has a splendid last note, with the gong allowed to sound for ages. Here's my take on it:

The last five (syncopated) chords are played by the whole orchestra in quavers. That is, except the tam-tam, which plays just three notes (on the first, third and fifth chords). Each of the three notes is given as a dotted crotchet, and laisser vibrer is wriiten over (or rather, just after) the first of the three. So - dotted crotchets played against quavers and an instruction to 'let ring'.

I think it would take a very narrow-minded conductor to deduce that Rachmaninov wanted the first note to ring, but the other two to be stopped. More so when you consider (a) that the remaining two notes should be allowed to sound longer than the prevailing crotchets anyway, and (b) the sound of the first note (which is definitely laisser vibrer) is inevitably muffled a bit by the rest of the orchestra's playing another chord over the ringing. Rachmaninov reiterates the prevailing sff for the last chord and, for the first time the tam-tam can sound truly freely.

It is obvious to me that laisser vibrer applies to all three tam-tam notes.

[rauschwerk]

Ormandy conducted the first performance in the composer's presence. What does he do on his recording? That is surely authoritative. I used to have an LP of it but can't remember.

The score cannot, it seems, be taken as gospel. It was published before the first performance and Ormandy remembered Rachmaninov pointing out that the 'Non allegro' direction for the first dance is wrong - it should be 'Allegro'.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Janson's RCO recording kind of solves the problem for me, as it's one of earlier RCO Live issues, where they kept the applause.

What happens is that we get the laisser vibrer on the final tam-tam (not gong!) stroke (as on Jansons' EMI recording) but in fact the audience is in well before this finishes; I don't normally like that in a live recording (or the "football-crowd" cheer that you get at the Proms for any old performance of something with a grandstand finish) but there is the odd occasion when it works. My personal preference is for the stopped final note, but with enough "splash" for a slight overhang.

Sitting there waiting for the laisser vibrer to finish on a recording does feel rather daft.

[Nick Armstrong]

Sitting there waiting for the laisser vibrer to finish on a recording does feel rather daft.

Laurie...?

[LaurieWatt]

Janson's RCO recording kind of solves the problem for me, as it's one of earlier RCO Live issues, where they kept the applause.
.

Sitting there waiting for the laisser vibrer to finish on a recording does feel rather daft.

Err...why, EoftheS?? Seems pretty dramatic to me!

[LaurieWatt]

Some fine gong-, tambourine- and castanet-work to be heard in last Friday's LPO/Jurowski concert at RFH, LaurieWatt - and microphones aplenty so I hope that a disc will be forthcoming in due course

Indeed, amateur51, it was an astounding concert. The whole thing will, I believe, be made available for download, and, in due course, I am sure that we will see the DSCH6 as a commercial CD release, it was far too good not to share with all lovers of this symphony.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Err...why, EoftheS?? Seems pretty dramatic to me!

Some people just have no sense of drama, eh?

[Nick Armstrong]

Some people just have no sense of drama, eh?

You haven't heard Laurie's HiFi, tuned over the years to render tam-tam strokes with trouser-flapping accuracy!

[Maclintick]

Ormandy conducted the first performance in the composer's presence. What does he do on his recording? That is surely authoritative. I used to have an LP of it but can't remember.

The score cannot, it seems, be taken as gospel. It was published before the first performance and Ormandy remembered Rachmaninov pointing out that the 'Non allegro' direction for the first dance is wrong - it should be 'Allegro'.

Yes, Rachmaninov also pointed out the offending misprint to Dimitri Mitropoulos, presumably for a premiere in Minneapolis, but the error seems to have been perpetuated through the intervening years by conductors observing the "non allegro" marking with lumpen precision. On Mr GongGong's point; after the fateful tolling of the Dies Irae in that tumultuous coda, the tam-tam player should surely relish his moment of solo glory ?

[Hornspieler]

Rachmaninov's finest work?

Agreed

HS

[Alain Maréchal]

Agreed

HS

agreed here as well.

Ormandy stifles the tam-tam. The extreme is provided by Neeme Jarvi - 22 seconds left on the track after the final chord. My own favourite recording is Kondrashin - he lets the tam-tam ring for a couple of seconds only, but its an entirely appropriate doleful sound - not remotely triumphant.

[Roslynmuse]

Interesting thread. I went to a performance recently not having heard the piece live before and was rather taken aback by the ringing tam-tam - to this listener, fairly unfamiliar with the work, the long overhang seemed, dramatically, contrary to what had immediately preceded it and I couldn't make sense of it. In fact it rather spoilt the effect of the performance as a whole. I looked at the score later and was surprised by the notation. My immediate response was that the l.v. should not be 'a niente' but - as per Alain's description of the Kondrashin recording - stopped after a few seconds. But if Ormandy stifles it, presumably with the composer's approval, and, furthermore, the printed score is perhaps not as accurate as it should be, then someone should have a look at the manuscript!