Beethoven String Quartets on record

[jayne lee wilson]

Nothing evasive or unprincipled about that! You do yourself a disservice. As an aside, not sure whether it was auto-correct or not which led to the wonderful notion of being "self-enamelled" rather than "self-enamoured" - I like the idea of a glossily shiny SA.

Reminds me uncomfortably of what happened to Han Solo in The Empire Strikes Back.....

[ostuni]

From the 1960s onwards, they were my "go-to" for the Beethoven String Quartets. I still love their survey but have since got more to appreciate other, more HIPP, approaches by the likes of the Mosaïques, Eroica and Chiaroscuros. These Smetana Quartet performances lie somewhere between the Italians and the HIPPs, I suppose.

Cuarteto Casals were mentioned earlier in the thread: they’re my current favourite in the field of modern-instruments but HIP-influenced Beethoven. I very much like them in all of the quartets, early, middle, & late.

[Bryn]

Cuarteto Casals were mentioned earlier in the thread: they’re my current favourite in the field of modern-instruments but HIP-influenced Beethoven. I very much like them in all of the quartets, early, middle, & late.

Yes, I have much enjoyed their broadcast performances on TtN, et al. After importing these Smetana Quartet recordings, I think I will go cold turkey on new sets. Always ready to hear a new/different performance of these works.

[Serial_Apologist]

Nothing evasive or unprincipled about that! You do yourself a disservice. As an aside, not sure whether it was auto-correct or not which led to the wonderful notion of being "self-enamelled" rather than "self-enamoured" - I like the idea of a glossily shiny SA.

What's kind of unprincipled about it is that none of the later composers would have done the work that they did without the prior examples of Beethoven and Liszt.

I'm similar about socialism, whose original principles were deeply embedded in Chrstianity. As an agnostic I take the bit of it I like and disregard the bit I don't go with.

[silvestrione]

All borrowed LPs here initally.
First the Italianos, but once I'd staggered home with the Complete, slightly dog-eared Box of the Vegh Stereo.... that was it. They weren't in great condition and the noise often tried my patience but I knew they were special; they reached deeper and sang more intimately. After Hans Keller's 1970s talks on the Late Quartets, OP.130 especially, I OD'd on them and had to keep away for some years. I went backwards through the Op.59s, (Simpson talks, Italiano LPs) but usually heard this canon on R3 relays.

Latterly, after many borrowed and bought sets and samples, broadcasts and webcasts, my current go-to is the 1952 Veghs (lovely Music & Arts boxset, excellent remaster). Particularly as I tend to play Op.18 much more now, and the earlier Vegh set is very good in those. But I'll be checking out the Chiaroscuros soon.

But Op.130 (that ethereal development in the 1st movement is often in my head) remains very special to me (along with 135 "Must it be? It must be!": a wonderfully deft and subtle work which wears its profundity lightly.).
I may be in a minority here, but I came to prefer the shorter dance-rondo-finale for the complete Op.130, with Op.133 as a separate experience....

I recall Simpson once, mischievous as ever, suggested playing Op.130 as a 7-movement work, with the dance finale last....

No, you're not! Mind you, I'm probably in a minority, in that I love all late Beethoven, except op. 133, which I can't take at all. (And I can take the finale of op 106 only on a good day...)

[Bryn]

No, you're not! Mind you, I'm probably in a minority, in that I love all late Beethoven, except op. 133, which I can't take at all. (And I can take the finale of op 106 only on a good day...)

I'm not that fond of Op.133 or 134, either. However, the Grosse Fuge, in its original context is another matter. I find it a far more satisfactory conclusion to Op. 130 than I do the demanded replacement.

[silvestrione]

I'm not that fond of Op.133 or 134, either. However, the Grosse Fuge, in its original context is another matter. I find it a far more satisfactory conclusion to Op. 130 than I do the demanded replacement.

I thought Op 133 was the Grosse Fuge?

[french frank]

I thought Op 133 was the Grosse Fuge?

'Tis on my discs.

[RichardB]

I'm not that fond of Op.133 or 134, either. However, the Grosse Fuge, in its original context is another matter. I find it a far more satisfactory conclusion to Op. 130 than I do the demanded replacement.

Indeed, the original and complete op.130/133 is one of Beethoven's most radical and beautiful works. The fugue is the necessarily extensive conclusion to an unprecedentedly large-scale quartet, rather than a standalone piece, and the replacement finale is very nice, of course, but doesn't complete the structure in the way that the fugue does, instead giving it a throwaway ending that in retrospect gives the quartet more of a fragmented, divertimento-like shape, which is not bad but it's not transcendent like the complete work as originally conceived.

[Mandryka]

When The Tokyo Quartet released their first Beethoven recordings, they were interviewed for the booklet. Their comments about op 130 and op 133 always struck me as interesting, because it gives a performers' viewpoint (Sorry about the poor image to text transfer!)

Which version should a modern quartet play, both to respect the composer's wishes and to make the musical statement the quartet itself prefers?

After years of playing both endings, the Tokyo Quartet has a definite opinion.

Kikuei Ikeda: "We have tried it both ways. The more we play it, the more strongly we feel that the Grosse Fuge has to he the last movement."

Sadao Harada: "Each movement of the quartet has its own very strong char-acter, forming a chain of contrasts. The first movement, with its contrasting tempos (Adagio ma non troppo and Allegro), is itself a study in contrasts; and not only is the pacing of the tempos in that movement important, but it leads to the whole chain of contrasts between the movements."

Peter Oundjian: "The greatest contrast of all comes between the Cavatina and the last movement—whichever one you choose. For us, the Rondo has a Feeling of apology, almost. Perhaps that's not the right word—but when we're doing the Rondo we feel that we're playing a divertimento type of piece, and :hat the last movement is another dance movement (like the Scherzo and the Alla tedesca). When we're playing it with the Fugue, there's almost a sense of anticipation in these divertimento movements, and the Cavatina shines like a iewel—something perfect and quite simple, but opening the door for the huge ;tatement to be made at the end. What comes before, the middle movements, sn't as profound, but they too are leading up to the finale. When you play the tondo, you have to make more of the middle movements."

Sadao Harada: "Either way, how you get out of the emotional state of the :avatina is the key to me. I feel, when I'm playing the Cavatina, that the sense )f divertimento is already done; to return to the dance of the Rondo afterward s very difficult."

[jayne lee wilson]

Indeed, the original and complete op.130/133 is one of Beethoven's most radical and beautiful works. The fugue is the necessarily extensive conclusion to an unprecedentedly large-scale quartet, rather than a standalone piece, and the replacement finale is very nice, of course, but doesn't complete the structure in the way that the fugue does, instead giving it a throwaway ending that in retrospect gives the quartet more of a fragmented, divertimento-like shape, which is not bad but it's not transcendent like the complete work as originally conceived.

Surely Op.130 is composed against the background of the Baroque Overture-Suite of Telemann or Bach, which has a weightier more serious 1st movement (complete with repeat of the "exposition" and the slow intro, as Op.130 does - recurring throughout (i), very unusual in sonata; Mendelssohn took it up eagerly); followed by a series of lighter dances which often have deeper or more serious interludes (eg Air Triste/Doux/Grave etc; the Cavatina in the Beethoven).

Yes, you could see the fugue-finale as the most violently subversive conclusion to such a concept, but I feel the concept works better with the subtler, closer reference to the Suite background in the fast dance-finale. Especially as a meaningful contrast following the profound Cavatina; which for me, doesn't have much to "say" to the fugue, nor the fugue to say to it.

We don't have to choose of course; lucky us.

Hans Keller, in those magisterial Op.130 analytical talks suggested that Beethoven finally found the dance-suite/great fugue contrast just too obvious, even a little crude, in its musical and expressive effect; a view I tend to have much empathy for.

(Excellent Richard Whitehouse Collection essay on Op.130 in Gramophone 9/2021, choices: Busch, Takács, Ébène; finally, the stereo Vegh....)

[Bryn]

I thought Op 133 was the Grosse Fuge?

Op. 133 and 134 are both versions of the Grosse Fuge, published as separate works after Beethoven was constrained to compose a substitute final movement for B flat major quartet. I am not that fond of Op. 133 in that separate role. Op. 134 was not, I feel, Beethoven at his best, in terms of making the arrangement for piano duo. It, as it were, loses a lot in translation, let alone in removal from its intended context. Something of a curiosity, and not much more, even when played on an 1830 Johann Nepomuk Tröndlin instrument:

[silvestrione]

Op. 133 and 134 are both versions of the Grosse Fuge, published as separate works after Beethoven was constrained to compose a substitute final movement for B flat major quartet. I am not that fond of Op. 133 in that separate role. Op. 134 was not, I feel, Beethoven at his best, in terms of making the arrangement for piano duo. It, as it were, loses a lot in translation, let alone in removal from its intended context. Something of a curiosity, and not much more, even when played on an 1830 Johann Nepomuk Tröndlininstrument:

Oh, I see, you meant you only like it as a conclusion to the quartet, not as a stand alone...

[Mandryka]

Op. 133 and 134 are both versions of the Grosse Fuge, published as separate works after Beethoven was constrained to compose a substitute final movement for B flat major quartet. I am not that fond of Op. 133 in that separate role. Op. 134 was not, I feel, Beethoven at his best, in terms of making the arrangement for piano duo. It, as it were, loses a lot in translation, let alone in removal from its intended context. Something of a curiosity, and not much more, even when played on an 1830 Johann Nepomuk Tröndlin instrument:

I know someone who rates real highly the op 134 on Naxos, he says that it brings out the poise, the classical elegance, in the music, and he yearns for a quartet performance like that. I once though I'd found it -- here

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arditti-Vol-1-Beethoven-Nancarrow-Xenakis/dp/B00000321W

And here's the naxos 134

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B004QE2716/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SNPD3UWI7XCE&keywords=beethoven+naxos+134&qid=1642096924&s=music&sprefix=beethoven+naxos+134%2Cpopular%2C51&sr=1-1

I know someone else who reckons the most satisfying Big Fugue is Furtwangler's 1945 VPO recording.

[silvestrione]

Indeed, the original and complete op.130/133 is one of Beethoven's most radical and beautiful works. The fugue is the necessarily extensive conclusion to an unprecedentedly large-scale quartet, rather than a standalone piece, and the replacement finale is very nice, of course, but doesn't complete the structure in the way that the fugue does, instead giving it a throwaway ending that in retrospect gives the quartet more of a fragmented, divertimento-like shape, which is not bad but it's not transcendent like the complete work as originally conceived.

What is necessary about it? It just seems grossly inflated to me. Op 131 is unprecedentedly large-scale also, isn't it, and benefits from one of Beethoven's most concise, concentrated and powerful finales (demonstrating for me the old 'less is more' adage). The cavatina has that concentrated quality, and I agree with JLW that it just doesn't work with the 'great fugue' (indeed needs something like that replacement finale).