Forum BAL : Bruckner 9

[Bryn]

... with a composer such as Mahler or Bruckner, a single authorial identity is all important to the character of the work, not only in the structure of the work but the detail (especially Mahler the detail of whose orchestration was so phenomenally precise).

A couple of points:

In the case of Mahler, would the "authoral identity" not inlcude contributions from such as his good friend Rott, at least in some of the earlier symphonies?

Re. Mahler's specification of detail in his scores, would that more conductors paid as much attention to them as the likes of Norrington do, though Mahler was happy enough for others to adjust such matters as orchestration to suit the occasion, I understand.

[aeolium]

Yes, Rott seems to have been a strong influence on Mahler's early symphonies, though I think strong influence (even to the point of direct quotation, as with Schumann's quotation from An die ferne Geliebte in his C major Fantasy) does not compromise authorial identity - it can be a conscious act of homage from one composer to another. And we know Mahler greatly admired Rott as a symphonist.

I completely agree that conductors should pay great attention to the detail in Mahler's scores as Mahler took such trouble to put it there. Whatever freedom he allowed others to change the orchestration, I would always prefer to listen to his own scoring since that brings out most fully his musical personality.

[Roehre]

Rott seems to have been a strong influence on Mahler's early symphonies

That a remarkable observation, as most likely Hanns Rott's influence IMO starts with Mahler 5. Mahler studied Rott's E-major symphony after he completed no.4 and half way composing 5.

Interestingly the fifth is the only Mahler symphony which was completely reorchestrated (only symphonies 1 and 2 were amended, in case of 1 quite substantially even, but NOT FULLY re-scored).

It was during the composition of 5 that Mahler borrowed the score of his friend Hans Rott's 1st symphony (in E-major). This work, although more than a decade older than Mahler 5, shows definite style elements of 5. The conclusion therefore: Mahler was in his 5th strongly influenced by Rott, at least where the orchestration is concerned.

The original scoring of 5 was far more similar to the 3rd's and 4th's scoring than the now familiar one.

Alma makes some remarks in her memoires regarding this work, e.g. Mahler removing vast parts of the percussion he used in the oldest version (as "all those lovely melodies were covered by the percussion").

There exists a book about Mahler 5, accompanied by a CD on which RoyalCGO/Chailly play some extracts of 5 in the original as well as in the present orchestration, which cannot be described otherwise than as a revelation.

I think strong influence (even to the point of direct quotation, as with Schumann's quotation from An die ferne Geliebte in his C major Fantasy) does not compromise authorial identity - it can be a conscious act of homage from one composer to another.

As is proven by not only Schumann quoting An die ferne Geliebte, but Brahms doing so in the first version (1853) of the latter's trio opus 8 too.
And let's not forget e.g. Brahms' quotations of the horn melody from Schumann's Konzertstück in G opus 92 in his first mvt of Piano concerto no.1.
Definitely homages to other composers and other composers' works.

[aeolium]

That a remarkable observation, as most likely Hanns Rott's influence IMO starts with Mahler 5. Mahler studied Rott's E-major symphony after he completed no.4 and half way composing 5.

Roehre, I was thinking for instance of the similarities between the 3rd movement of the Rott symphony in E and the Ländler movement of the Mahler 1st. Could Mahler have written the latter without knowing Rott's symphony? I think Paavo Järvi has even accused Mahler of plagiarism here and elsewhere (and I don't think he was talking about the later symphonies). I do not of course know the full background to the Rott/Mahler influence - I am only going on what I have heard in the music and what I have read in a few articles. What is the date of the letter in which Mahler praises Rott's work so highly?

[mathias broucek]

Haitink and Van Beinum also add an extra timpani roll after the second phrase of the 8th's finale

[Bryn]

I imprinted on this through the BBC Music Mag's covermount BBCPO/Klee. The vast Liverpool Cathedral echo is marvellous for some of those big silences (though it doesn't do much for the scherzo's clarity!).

I have just checked my two copies of that BBCMM cover-mount CD. The drop-out is during the first movement, from 7' 45.545" to 7' 46.602". I have now ripped the disc to hard drive and deleted that dead zone. The 1.057" is lost, but the edit sounds less intrusive than the gap did.

[LeMartinPecheur]

May I mention one that is unlikely to be anyone's top pick, but anyway...

The late EMI studio recording by Klemperer.

Neat and tidy it certainly ain't, but I still find it a moving document. Klemperer's closeness to the end being an appropriate position for grappling with Bruckner in the same state??

[Mandryka]

May I mention one that is unlikely to be anyone's top pick, but anyway...

The late EMI studio recording by Klemperer.

Neat and tidy it certainly ain't, but I still find it a moving document. Klemperer's closeness to the end being an appropriate position for grappling with Bruckner in the same state??

I am very frustrated that this doesn't seem to be available at present - along with so many other key Klemperer recordings.

Klemperer is often acclaimed as the conductor of the only successful studio recording of Bruckner 6.

[mathias broucek]

Celi's Munich Bruckner 6 is outstanding - esp the Adagio

[Mandryka]

Celi's Munich Bruckner 6 is outstanding - esp the Adagio

Yes, but isn't that a live recording?

[makropulos]

What is your favourite recording ?

I have a soft spot for Cleveland /Dohnanyi as it is so alive and for Walter for its humanity but the top for me has to be Gunter Wand and probably his 2001 Prom performance most of all .

Live performances I heard included Jochum and Matacic, and both made wonderful studio recordings (there are also several Jochum live performances around and at least a couple of Matacic ones). Otherwise, my preferences are for Giulini, Bernstein/VPO, Bruno Walter (and agree entirely with your point about W's humanity). I was at that Wand Prom performance too - it was rather special.

As for four-movement realizations, I've not been remotely convinced by any of those I've heard, but I'm happy to keep trying - the idea is both valid and appealing. To my ears, the realizations have not been, but that's obviously only a matter of opinion.

[Karafan]

I imprinted on this through the BBC Music Mag's covermount BBCPO/Klee. The vast Liverpool Cathedral echo is marvellous for some of those big silences (though it doesn't do much for the scherzo's clarity!). Isn't there a Wand recorded in Linz cathedral or somewhere similar - or am I thinking of 8? .

Wand did 8 and 9 on RCA (nla) in the wonderful Luebeck Cathedral. Great acoustic overhang! Don't believe anyone telling you that that particular B9 is on this disc http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruckner-Sym...6827846&sr=1-5 - it isn't. A trap the last B9 BaL reviewer fell into rather conspicuously!

Bws
Karafan

[ostuni]

Thanks for the clarification, Karafan. Ah well, Lübeck, Linz - both cathedrals with an L... No big difference between Austria and N Germany?!

I see the reviewer at Musicweb also seems to think that that RCA 9 was Lübeck. I've had a listen on Spotify, and certainly agree with you: a reasonably resonant acoustic, but certainly no cathedral! It only confirms my prejudice that 75% of Musicweb reviewers are pretty clueless...

[Barbirollians]

Glad to have found a topic to get lots of responses.

I think that B9 is a satisfying enough torso in its own right - rather like Schubert 8 to find any attempted completion a let down - even if an interesting academic exercise .

I agree about the lack of Klemperer in the catalogue - far too much is not available at present. I loved his B7 as well as the B6 .

[Mandryka]

I'm wondering why EMI's Icons series seems to have passed Klemperer by....mind you, the more I hear about that series, perhaps we should be glad.