The Haydn Thread

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My personal favourites are:

The Beaux Arts set mentioned above
The Jochum/Dresden set of 93-95, 98 (hard to find, sadly)
Bernstein's electrifying Sony set of the Paris symphonies
Celibidache's extraordinary Munich recording of 92 (worth hearing just for the slow intro)
Colin Davis's RCO recordings of 82, 83, 88 and 93-104
Furtwangler's glorious 88

I don't know the Jochum or Celibidache recordings, but everything else in your list would be on mine, too, mathias

I'd add the Kuijken in Symphonies 88-92 (with La Petite Bande) and 82-87 (with the OAE) as HIPP complements to the Davis & Bernstein sets
Karajan (with Gundula Janowitz ) and Rene Jacobs for The Creation (and the latter for The Seasons, too).

And I've always found the Kodaly Quartet on NAXOS extremely satisfying ...

... but, Like Thropple, I long for an easily-available (and preferable not expensive) re-issue of the Mosaiques!

Ant suggestions from anyone for the Piano Music?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

For some reason, I have never really got on with the "celebrated" later ones. After a certain point - say, from the mid 80s onwards - they feel vapid and lifeless. Some of them seem to be nothing more than a sequence of mundane classical procedures, utterly devoid of interest and individuality. People who say that Haydn wrote the same symphony 104 times probably had these in mind......... I know there are lots of Haydn fans who will take objection to this, but that is really how it feels to me.

I don't "object to this" - I just can't begin to understand it!

I completely share your love and admiration of the earlier Symphonies (and there are enough of them to keep anyone with a soulful of joy forever) but before I read your post, I would've thought that when a man is tired of the London Symphonies, he is tired of life; for there is in the London Symphonies all that life can afford!

[waldo]

I don't "object to this" - I just can't begin to understand it!

I completely share your love and admiration of the earlier Symphonies (and there are enough of them to keep anyone with a soulful of joy forever) but before I read your post, I would've thought that when a man is tired of the London Symphonies, he is tired of life; for there is in the London Symphonies all that life can afford!

If I am being totally honest, the later symphonies sound like second-rate Mozart to me - Mozart without the beauty or magic.

My God, those insipid Andantes! Take the celebrated Suprise andante: the same banal little tune played over and over and over. How can anyone enjoy that? It is just too light! Too galante!

Then you have those formulaic first movements. Thump-dumpty-dum! (The intro), followed by a wearying set of predictable procedures. I have tried and I have tried, but they are just too dull.

[Thropplenoggin]

Plenty of food for thought. Thanks JLW, Waldo, Saly and FHG. I have to say I'm more inclined towards the HIPP end of the spectrum for the symphonies, esp. Bruggen and Kuijken, as in the same way Harnoncourt once had a Beethoven problem, I have a Harnoncourt problem. As I've discovered a lot of High Classical/Baroque music through HIPP initially, it does make it very difficult to then go back and enjoy the 'big band' versions of yore (though I am aware that some conductors were HIPP avant le mot, in terms of tempi, etc.)

As for the string quartets, if the Hagen Q. are as dependable in Haydn as they are in Mozart, this could be a winner.

Any thoughts on Adam Fischer's (deep breath) traversal of the symphonies with the Österreichisch-Ungarische Haydn Philharmonie?

[waldo]

Beware! Kuijken applies a continuo!!!!! (But if you like your Haydn with tinkles, be my guest..........)

[Thropplenoggin]

Beware! Kuijken applies a continuo!!!!! (But if you like your Haydn with tinkles, be my guest..........)

Thanks for the warning, Waldo! I expect I'd prefer a tinkle-free zone in the first instance...

[Roehre]

....
Any thoughts on Adam Fischer's (deep breath) traversal of the symphonies with the Österreichisch-Ungarische Haydn Philharmonie?

As a set straightforwardly excellent. And always value for that money (even on the original Nimbus CDs), either as separate 34CD-set or as part of the Haydn-150 CD-set (both Brilliant)

[Rolmill]

As bbm suggests, you really should take in the great masses (unless you are allergic to choral music, of course ) - I believe the cliché "life-enhancing" was invented for them (OK, I made that up - but it could be true...). The Hickox set is very good, but Pinnock's earlier recordings of some of them are even better - his Nelson mass is possibly my most-played Haydn disc (it's coupled with a terrific Te Deum).

I find piano sonata recordings trickier to recommend. I am a great fan of Hamelin and have all three of his "twofer" sets of these, but have to say that I find more to admire than to warm to in these performances. Same with Pletnev. Planes is quite graceful but a little dull. The Schornsheim complete set on Capriccio is (was?) a good bargain, she uses a range of period instruments effectively to differentiate between the early and later sonatas. There's a good Schiff disc on the bargain Elatus label, but of those in my collection I like the Brendel (a Decca reissue) best.

I have the Fischer complete set on Brilliant Classics - performances are inevitably inconsistent, as are the recordings (some rather reverberant), but some are very good and most are satisfactory. Fortunately, the least impressive performances/recordings tend to be of the better known, later symphonies where there are numerous fine alternatives. Don't forget the concertos, especially the sinfonia concertante, which is a gem (Norrington is excellent, coupled with fine performances of the two cello concertos by Isserlis).

[waldo]

Yes, the Fischer is outstanding - and not just because it is complete. HIP aware, too - a nice lean sound to the strings, sharp attacks, piquant woodwind. The later ones were recorded first and they come off a little worse in terms of acoustics (a bit too resonant to hear all the details), but still outstanding.

[Bryn]

As bbm suggests, you really should take in the great masses (unless you are allergic to choral music, of course ) - I believe the cliché "life-enhancing" was invented for them (OK, I made that up - but it could be true...). The Hickox set is very good, but Pinnock's earlier recordings of some of them are even better - his Nelson mass is possibly my most-played Haydn disc (it's coupled with a terrific Te Deum).

I find piano sonata recordings trickier to recommend. I am a great fan of Hamelin and have all three of his "twofer" sets of these, but have to say that I find more to admire than to warm to in these performances. Same with Pletnev. Planes is quite graceful but a little dull. The Schornsheim complete set on Capriccio is (was?) a good bargain, she uses a range of period instruments effectively to differentiate between the early and later sonatas. There's a good Schiff disc on the bargain Elatus label, but of those in my collection I like the Brendel (a Decca reissue) best.

I have the Fischer complete set on Brilliant Classics - performances are inevitably inconsistent, as are the recordings (some rather reverberant), but some are very good and most are satisfactory. Fortunately, the least impressive performances/recordings tend to be of the better known, later symphonies where there are numerous fine alternatives. Don't forget the concertos, especially the sinfonia concertante, which is a gem (Norrington is excellent, coupled with fine performances of the two cello concertos by Isserlis).

Norrington's Stuttgart Londons make a fine complement to the Fischer complete survey. Shame the Goodman/Hanover Band survey was never completed.

The Schornsheim keyboard survey is fine indeed, as that too is complemented well by that on Naxos by Beghin (Blu-ray Audio).

For the later String Quartets, the Festetics I find generally preferable to the Quatuor Mosaïques, though I am glad to have both.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

As bbm suggests, you really should take in the great masses (unless you are allergic to choral music, of course ) - I believe the cliché "life-enhancing" was invented for them (OK, I made that up - but it could be true...). The Hickox set is very good, but Pinnock's earlier recordings of some of them are even better - his Nelson mass is possibly my most-played Haydn disc (it's coupled with a terrific Te Deum).

Oh, yes - how could I forget the wonderful Masses?! <slapownheademoticon> I'm very fond of Bruno Weil's SONY recordings here.

I find piano sonata recordings trickier to recommend. I am a great fan of Hamelin and have all three of his "twofer" sets of these, but have to say that I find more to admire than to warm to in these performances. Same with Pletnev. Planes is quite graceful but a little dull. The Schornsheim complete set on Capriccio is (was?) a good bargain, she uses a range of period instruments effectively to differentiate between the early and later sonatas. There's a good Schiff disc on the bargain Elatus label, but of those in my collection I like the Brendel (a Decca reissue) best.

Thanks for this, Rolmill.

[Tony Halstead]

Shame the Goodman/Hanover Band survey was never completed

Quite so.

[MickyD]

Indeed I do.......

I have always liked the early and middle symphonies - the so-called Sturm und Drang, especially. Every one is different and has its own, unique feel. Movements are usually pretty short and are full of quirky invention. Above all, they are just interesting. For some reason, I have never really got on with the "celebrated" later ones. After a certain point - say, from the mid 80s onwards - they feel vapid and lifeless. Some of them seem to be nothing more than a sequence of mundane classical procedures, utterly devoid of interest and individuality. People who say that Haydn wrote the same symphony 104 times probably had these in mind......... I know there are lots of Haydn fans who will take objection to this, but that is really how it feels to me.

But as I say, the early and middle ones are absolutely wonderful and have been a major part of my listening for years. If you are going to get some of these, the key is to get them WITHOUT continuo. Absolutely nothing worse than a tinkling harpsichord in a classical symphony. That means you have to avoid Pinnock (unbelievably, maddeningly prominent continuo) and Goodman. My favourites are AAM with Hogwood and Bruggen with the OAE. If you are bothered by authenticity, all the evidence suggests that Haydn did not wreck his own compositions with the brutal imposition of a harpsichord.

Apart from that - Opus 20 string quartets are a must; far more interesting than some of the later sets. Mosaiques are good (though the recording is a bit glassy and over-fierce in places); Hagen are better.

I've said it so often before on these boards - what a tragedy that the sublime Hogwood cycle was only two-thirds completed. But at least we have pretty much all those wonderful early/middle symphonies, which I personally would much rather hear than the late ones.

[Thropplenoggin]

I've been listening to some of Adam Fischer's Haydn symphonies to do with the Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra.

Two complaints I have read in reviews of Fischer's accounts are:-

1. Not all repeats are taken
2. More heinously, it would seem, that Fischer has "a fetish for using solo strings, unmarked by Haydn - an ear-tickling effect once in a while, perhaps, but here a predictable gimmick". Why would Fischer do this if it's not in the score?

--

Currently testing Thomas Fey/Heidelberg Sinfonia on Hänssler Classics: sumptuous sonics, great balance, and none of the outrageous rubato and dynamics of Harnoncourt. Those looking for a modern Haydn symphony might want to investigate. All available on Qobuz.

[Julien Sorel]

The argument about continuo in Haydn symphonies rests on the musicologist James Webster's hypothesis summarised here http://everything2.com/title/On+the+...27s+Symphonies

It's not established nor as far as I can see does it have as much to back it up as Parrott's one-to-a-part Bach theory (whether members here like that approach or not, there is strong evidence for it). I don't have a problem with harpsichord continuo in Haydn but if you do obviously steer clear.

Thomas Fey's modern instrument / period influenced Heidelberg (Hännsler) symphony recordings (those I've heard) are much more interesting than Fischer, but I find him dull and his orchestra saccharine. Fey does have a continuo for earlier symphonies. He also uses solo instruments in some of the minuet trios: I'm not a musicologist, but it sounds plausible & attractive to me.

Hogwood's recordings I always found dull. Sorry. Just my view. The (non-continuo) Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil recordings of the Sturm und Drang & 88 - 91 symphonies are excellent http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphonies-4...4287194&sr=1-1 For the prices offered there shouldn't be missed.

I love Brüggen, one of the great interpretative musicians of the last 50 years. Kuijken, yes. Harnoncourt's 'Paris' symphonies and his other Concentus Musicus Wien recordings (avoid the Concergebouw Londons). I'd go for Norrington in those, also Les Musiciens du Louvre Grenoble / Minkowski (great fun).

For the quartets I'm with Bryn on the London Haydn. The Festetics Quartet's cycle is to me a great achievement.

Sonatas as with Bryn. Piano Trios, the Beaux Arts is deservedly a classic but Brilliant's period instrument Van Swieten Trio are IMV well worth hearing. This http://www.musicweb-international.co...ton_RIC315.htm single disc of Baryton Trios is lovely.

Finally, early Haydn is a strange and wondrous thing. Don't miss Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Manfed Huss's BIS recordings of early divertimentos, scherzos, etc. http://www.haydn.or.at/en/home Or their CDs of overtures and 'theatrical' symphonies.

I could probably think of more being a Haydn obsessive, but that will do. Oh, Harnoncourt in the Masses, Weil also (and Weil in the early Masses on Vivarte if you can track them down).

Kuijken's new La Petite Bande recording of symphonies 6, 7, 8 (this time no continuo. He's changed his mind. I marginally prefer Harnoncourt's wonderfully imaginative recording, but this is very good).

Edit: the 8 Notturni for the King of Naples are gorgeous, as is this recording http://www.amazon.co.uk/8-Notturni-K...1&sr=1-1-spell