Another Mahler Thread: 10th Symphony

[aeolium]

I quite agree, Barbirollians

[amateur51]

So can I but I think the best way to approach it is on the basis that it is a performing version and not a completion and Cooke was adamant about that according to Colin Matthews notes to the BPO/Rattle recording . I have just listened to that and as always I am really glad that the version was made as it enables us to hear Mahler's music even if only his original thoughts .

[Nick Armstrong]

Out of the murk lurches Caliban, 6'4

HIN-cidentally..... I never lurch!!

It was more of a surge.

And I'm 6'5...

[amateur51]

HIN-cidentally..... I never lurch!!

It was more of a surge.

And I'm 6'5...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So can I but I think the best way to approach it is on the basis that it is a performing version and not a completion and Cooke was adamant about that ... I have just listened to that and as always I am really glad that the version was made as it enables us to hear Mahler's music even if only his original thoughts .

Exactly so, Barbi, and the published score of the Cooke performing version is one of the finest works of Musicology ever produced; not just for its (re)production of the score, but also for the transcription of the draft underneath the score and for the copious commentary provided by Cooke and his colleagues. And anyone wondering why it took so many attempts to "get it right" needs only to glimpse through these to realize how scrupulous Cooke was for decades in getting a performable version of Mahler's precise thoughts as they originally stand.

[amateur51]

Exactly so, Barbi, and the published score of the Cooke performing version is one of the finest works of Musicology ever produced; not just for its (re)production of the score, but also for the transcription of the draft underneath the score and for the copious commentary provided by Cooke and his colleagues. And anyone wondering why it took so many attempts to "get it right" needs only to glimpse through these to realize how scrupulous Cooke was for decades in getting a performable version of Mahler's precise thoughts as they originally stand.

What a hero Cooke was, and supported by The Third Programme too

[Roehre]

..... Cooke has been characterized as making the rest of X sound more like the Wunderhorn Symphonies,(...)

I don't know who said this, but it is evidently incorrect. If one wants to know why this statement is incorrect, please listen to the Barshai realisation of 10. Cooke has taken 9 and LvdE as points of departure for his past 1966 amendments, as can be demonstrated by comparing the two scherzi, especially the first one, with these late works.
A comparison of the continuity sktech of 10 with the surviving one of 8 makes clear, that the broad harmonic canvass of the latter was not envisaged for 10. The 10th's continuity draft and the "completed" draft score fragments (the Adagio and the main part of the Purgatorio) show a continuation -if you like- of the harmonic and instrumental thinking of 9 and LvdE.

Obviously we'll never be able whether this asssumption is correct. But a return to the 8 or 5-7 ways of instrumentation has got to be considered as less likely.

[Roehre]

Just Mozart! (...) Also (irrational bit coming up), Mozart may well have discussed this work with him and passed on important themes and so on.........

Not that irrational.
There are pointers that Süssmayer must have had scraps or even some more extensive sketches at hand.
There is some circumstantial evidence for that, i.a. that the Süssmayer-completed stuff contains some harmonic twists which never occur anywhere else in his output, and which are basically considered to be beyond his own original imagination.

That picture is in accordance with what we know of Mozart's working methods from the last couple of years of his life as well.

It must be stated here that Beethoven has got the name that he sketched extensively and left by far the most sketches, but (apart from Schubert) it's Mozart who left by far the largest number of incomplete works (and quite a lot of them he might have returned to later). Fragments for the Requiem other than those which have survived in the original score in Mozart's handwriting are therefore far from unlikely.

[gurnemanz]

I'm afraid I don't know MAHLER '10' in any of its versions. I see it's being played liveon Thursday 21st by the RLPO conducted by Petrenko and filling the full slot from 7.30pm to 10pm. The Cooke compl.

Is it really that long ?

Like salymap I do not know the work but might be a potential convert. When the first recording of the Cooke version came out, I remember I deciding point blank that I was not going to be interested in it. Ever since, I have stuck to that rather prejudiced and uncompromising line. However, I've just read through this thread quite carefully and found it fascinating and enlightening (spiced up with some enjoyably spiky interchanges) and have realised that I have probably been missing something worth hearing. We were most impressed when we saw Petrenko at the Proms last Summer and I am now resolved to make a point of tuning in on Thursday.

[waldo]

Fair enough, Roehre. Maybe not irrational. I was referring to my need (my irrational need) to feel that Mozart was responsible for the work.

As to whether Sussmayr received death-bed instructions, I think I read somewhere that there is was evidence - letter evidence, I think - that suggested Sussmayr was not even in town when Mozart died. I could be wrong and am more than happy to be corrected. I have read so many contradictory things on Mozart over the years, I really don't know what to believe anymore.......

[waldo]

Like salymap I do not know the work but might be a potential convert.

I hope you are converted, gurnemanz. For me, it is among the greatest works every written - no qualifications. I prefer it to most of the other Mahler symphonies, in fact. Worth remembering, too, that the first movement was fully orchestrated, and so was the wonderful middle movement - the purgatorio.

There are loads of versions on youtube and Spotify, but for a little taster (a bleeding chunk), some crazy fan has put the final ten minutes of the (supreme) Kurt Sanderling recording on youtube here

[teamsaint]

Like salymap I do not know the work but might be a potential convert. When the first recording of the Cooke version came out, I remember I deciding point blank that I was not going to be interested in it. Ever since, I have stuck to that rather prejudiced and uncompromising line. However, I've just read through this thread quite carefully and found it fascinating and enlightening (spiced up with some enjoyably spiky interchanges) and have realised that I have probably been missing something worth hearing. We were most impressed when we saw Petrenko at the Proms last Summer and I am now resolved to make a point of tuning in on Thursday.

When I first discovered this work, I asked on the board about how to approach it, and the best advice was probably to remember to buy a big box of tissues,lock the door, and take the phone off the hook.

Love it. I'm no Mahler expert, but its just wonderful.

[Petrushka]

I've changed my mind completely about the Bruckner 9 finale. Rattle joined the Bruckner elite with his outstanding recording.....of the first three movements. For me, I'm afraid the finale as constructed simply isn't on the same level of inspiration and possibly Bruckner was aware of this?

In any event, after hearing the LSO and Haitink in the work last month I no longer have any wish to hear the finale again.

[richardfinegold]

I don't know who said this, but it is evidently incorrect. If one wants to know why this statement is incorrect, please listen to the Barshai realisation of 10. Cooke has taken 9 and LvdE as points of departure for his past 1966 amendments, as can be demonstrated by comparing the two scherzi, especially the first one, with these late works.
A comparison of the continuity sktech of 10 with the surviving one of 8 makes clear, that the broad harmonic canvass of the latter was not envisaged for 10. The 10th's continuity draft and the "completed" draft score fragments (the Adagio and the main part of the Purgatorio) show a continuation -if you like- of the harmonic and instrumental thinking of 9 and LvdE.

Obviously we'll never be able whether this asssumption is correct. But a return to the 8 or 5-7 ways of instrumentation has got to be considered as less likely.

I'm not saying that I agree with the comment that Cooke's completion sounds more like the Wunderhorn Symphonies than some of the other completions; I'm just reporting that I've read that comment, made by critics, in reviews of various recordings of 10
I somehow have never been able to secure a recording of a non Cooke completion, so I can't really judge the accuracy of the claim

[Sir Velo]

I've changed my mind completely about the Bruckner 9 finale. Rattle joined the Bruckner elite with his outstanding recording.....of the first three movements. For me, I'm afraid the finale as constructed simply isn't on the same level of inspiration and possibly Bruckner was aware of this?

In any event, after hearing the LSO and Haitink in the work last month I no longer have any wish to hear the finale again.

Don't let JLW hear you say that Pet or she'll have you shot.

Sadly, I have to say I'm inclined to agree with you; the finale (as heard) is not on the same exalted level as what precedes it.