Another Mahler Thread: 10th Symphony

[Bryn]

The pedant gets hung by his own petard.

Yes, I lost "are not" in an edit. There is, however, no pedantry in the thrust of my message. If there is pedantry in the exchange it is in suggesting that failure to fully orchestrate a work means the work was not written. One has only to listen to the various performing versions to hear that the 10th was effectively through composed (i.e. written) by Mahler. Otherwise they would differ far more than they do.

I note that Chailly's version of the symphony get's a fair bit of praise here. I have always been put off by his elaboration of the drum strokes which mark the transition from the second 'scherzo' to the finale. My understanding was that the drum strokes were prompted by Mahler's experience of a funeral procession in New York. Why does Chailly second guess those strokes into brief rolls?

[Roehre]

..... that does not alter the incontravertible fact that Mahler did not write ten symphonies! - unless you consider as I do that "Das Lied" is as much a symphony as his other nine......

No, you're right HS, Mahler did not write ten symphonies. He composed possibly fifteen.
Before the present no.1 at least two symphonies have known to have existed and been rehearsed, a symphony in a-minor as well as a so-called Nordic symphony. In the mid-1930s Mengelberg was visiting Dresden and was shown four symphonies which he hadn't seen before. Mengelberg had performed 1-9 and LvdE and had made his own arrangements of Adagio and Purgatorio 10. Assuming two of those four are the already mentioned two symphonies, another two must have been in existence. But no hope of reviving those, as Bomber Harris' men destroyed Dresden in march 1945.
Lied von der Erde is an unnumbered symphony, as Mahler called the work a symphony himself.

Therefore: ten numbered symphonies, LvdE and 4 lost ones, makes 15.

On top of that (for the pedants) may I point out again that not only 10, but 9 and LvdE don't exist in a definite Mahler score either and are played in performing editions by Walter and Ratz, as 10 generally is in Cooke's?
Mahler planned changes in LvdE (see his piano score prepared after the orchestral draft score, which is the basis for Walter's edition), and IMO would have thineed e.g. the orchestration of the opening movement, if only to make the soloist audible.

[Mandryka]

Yes, I lost "are not" in an edit. There is, however, no pedantry in the thrust of my message. If there is pedantry in the exchange it is in suggesting that failure to fully orchestrate a work means the work was not written. One has only to listen to the various performing versions to hear that the 10th was effectively through composed (i.e. written) by Mahler. Otherwise they would differ far more than they do.

I note that Chailly's version of the symphony get's a fair bit of praise here. I have always been put off by his elaboration of the drum strokes which mark the transition from the second 'scherzo' to the finale. My understanding was that the drum strokes were prompted by Mahler's experience of a funeral procession in New York. Why does Chailly second guess those strokes into brief rolls?

Your grammar, never your strongest point, would appear to be declining as your years advance.

[Roehre]

Your grammar, never your strongest point, would appear to be declining as your years advance.

C'mon, if feel you must shoot the messenger, shoot him for the contents of that message, not for the wrappings of it.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Your grammar, never your strongest point, would appear to be declining as your years advance.

Mandryka, you should be ashamed of yourself. Your post sets a new low for this board in narrow, nasty, vicious smallmindedness. Please apologise and remove it.

[Pianoman]

Presumably his name is related to the poisonous mandrake..?

[Thropplenoggin]

Yes, I lost "are not" in an edit. There is, however, no pedantry in the thrust of my message. If there is pedantry in the exchange it is in suggesting that failure to fully orchestrate a work means the work was not written. One has only to listen to the various performing versions to hear that the 10th was effectively through composed (i.e. written) by Mahler. Otherwise they would differ far more than they do.

I note that Chailly's version of the symphony get's a fair bit of praise here. I have always been put off by his elaboration of the drum strokes which mark the transition from the second 'scherzo' to the finale. My understanding was that the drum strokes were prompted by Mahler's experience of a funeral procession in New York. Why does Chailly second guess those strokes into brief rolls?

This thread has convinced me to give Mahler 10 a reappraisal. So thanks all for that.

p.s. I was only gently chiding you for your solecism as you had done likewise to HS. Refute the argument, not the typos, which are easily done in teh [sic] online world. I see our resident troll has appropriated this chide for his/her own personal vendetta.

I would remind all forum members of this sagacious advice:

[Bryn]

I was only gently chiding you for your solecism as you had done likewise to HS.

And taken as such. Midshipman H is used to such things by now, too. One of the more unusual 'takes' on the 10th is the piano reduction of the Cooke score.

[Mandryka]

Unlike our failed grammarian from Braccan Heal, I have neither the time nor the inclination to pursue vendettas, personal or otherwise: I just like to see prigs get their comeuppances! :)

[amateur51]

Unlike our failed grammarian from Braccan Heal, I have neither the time nor the inclination to pursue vendettas, personal or otherwise: I just like to see prigs get their comeuppances! :)

Ah self-abuse eh Mandy? - no surprise there!

[jayne lee wilson]

A very nice summary, Richard.
The work is quite pleasing to listen to and I think that Deryck Cooke did a fine job in expanding upon Mahler's sketches,, but as far as I am concerned, that does not alter the incontravertible fact that Mahler did not write ten symphonies! - unless you consider as I do that "Das Lied" is as much a symphony as his other nine.

JLW: If you want to understand Mahler's symphonies, listen to them conducted by Dr Bruno Walter, his friend and champion.

Enjoy Deryck Cooke's suggestions for what they are - inspired speculation.

HS

A slight problem with that suggestion... Bruno Walter seems never to have recorded Nos. 3,6,7 or 8. So your understanding would be rather limited. (We'll let the Maestro off about the 10th).

The 10th exists; Mahler wrote it. It gives the lie even to Bernstein's remark in the wonderful "Unanswered Question", that "he [Mahler] said it all in the 9th."

The 9th is (Bernstein again) "the act of dying". The 10th is the Return to Life, finally a great Song of Love, of "What will survive of us is love" (Philip Larkin).

Mahler was probably the most autobiographical of composers: you really need to read every chapter, even if "unfinished" (though the 10th - in its actual notes - DOES tell the whole story).
Could you understand Bruckner's journey without knowing the 9th (all 4 movements!)? Or Shostakovich without 13-15? Those creative landmarks around which their inner dramas suddenly shift? THAT's the point about Mahler's 10th.

Nor can you know Beethoven without the 9th, INCLUDING THE FINALE.

[amateur51]

A slight problem with that suggestion... Bruno Walter seems never to have recorded Nos. 3,6,7 or 8. So your understanding would be rather limited. (We'll let the Maestro off about the 10th).

The 10th exists; Mahler wrote it. It gives the lie even to Bernstein's remark in the wonderful "Unanswered Question", that "he [Mahler] said it all in the 9th."

The 9th is (Bernstein again) "the act of dying". The 10th is the Return to Life, finally a great Song of Love, of "What will survive of us is love" (Philip Larkin).

Mahler was probably the most autobiographical of composers: you really need to read every chapter, even if "unfinished" (though the 10th - in its actual notes - DOES tell the whole story).
Could you understand Bruckner's journey without knowing the 9th (all 4 movements!)? Or Shostakovich without 13-15? Those creative landmarks around which their inner dramas suddenly shift? THAT's the point about Mahler's 10th.

Nor can you know Beethoven without the 9th, INCLUDING THE FINALE.

[remdataram]

I totally concur with Jayne Lee Wilson.

Mahler wrote his autobiography in music and the 10th symphony is full of love, sentiment, nostalgia and death. Without it Mahler's 'story' is incomplete.

We should enjoy and accept what we've been left with, just as we do with the Mozart Requiem - to name but one obvious example.

[Thropplenoggin]

A slight problem with that suggestion... Bruno Walter seems never to have recorded Nos. 3,6,7 or 8. So your understanding would be rather limited. (We'll let the Maestro off about the 10th).

The 10th exists; Mahler wrote it. It gives the lie even to Bernstein's remark in the wonderful "Unanswered Question", that "he [Mahler] said it all in the 9th."

The 9th is (Bernstein again) "the act of dying". The 10th is the Return to Life, finally a great Song of Love, of "What will survive of us is love" (Philip Larkin).

Mahler was probably the most autobiographical of composers: you really need to read every chapter, even if "unfinished" (though the 10th DOES tell the whole story).
Could you understand Bruckner's journey without knowing the 9th? Or Shostakovich without 13-15? Those creative landmarks around which their inner dramas suddenly shift? THAT's the point about Mahler's 10th.

Nor can you know Beethoven without the 9th, INCLUDING THE FINALE.

Sorry, JLW, you normally come out with a lot sense, admittedly in rather rococo prose, which I sort of like and is, I assume, the patented JLW style. However, I don't buy your overly dramatic suggestion that you can't know Mahler without knowing his 10th. It's a preposterous statement. If all you know of the composer are all of his works up to and including the 9th, you'll have a pretty damn good idea of how his musical thinking progressed and where it might go next. How you can then bring in Beethoven's 9th, which was performed by the composer himself in his lifetime, to shore up your thesis is just, well, daft!

[Thropplenoggin]

I totally concur with Jayne Lee Wilson.

Mahler wrote his autobiography in music and the 10th symphony is full of love, sentiment, nostalgia and death. Without it Mahler's 'story' is incomplete.

We should enjoy and accept what we've been left with, just as we do with the Mozart Requiem - to name but one obvious example.

I hear Mahler actually left some crotchet-shaped toenail clippings that were found scattered "meaningfully" on a sheet of score paper. Even as I type, musicologists are turning this into the first movement of Mahler's 11th. They are undecided as to the tempo marking. Currently, the debate rages 'twixt 'Sehr langsam' (Professor Hockenzesplatz) and 'Seir feierlich' (Dr. C. O. D Swallop).

Gustav wept!