Another Mahler Thread: 10th Symphony

[richardfinegold]

I haven't seen much discussion of the 10th on previous threads. I was wondering what people's thoughts were.
Here, of course, the main issue is whether one believes this a "real" Mahler symphony, or something else entirely. We know that I is perhaps 99% GM, but then how much of the rest is truly GM and the rest being the efforts of his "completes" trying to divine what he would have come up with had he had the time to finish his orchestration. Mahler's orchestration is so integral to his musical expression as to render the absence of his
efforts as fatal to any enterprise to realize the whole work.
And then if one accepts that GM's efforts can be completed, which edition? Should the orchestration sound more like the Wunderhorn Symphonies, or like the 5th-7th, or the 9th?
I had listened to any completions for many years. I first got to know I as an appendix to my first two recordings of the 9th; on lp, the Ancerl (10/I conducted by Neuman, both with the Czech PO) and on CD, Abbado/CSO. For years I sort of viewed 10/I as an appendix to the last movement of the 9th.
About 12 years ago I finally purchased the Inbal/Frankfurt RO recording of Cooke's completion of 10. at the time I didn't warm to either the piece of the playing. Both Rattle recordings wound up coming my way, and then Ormandy. I gradually came to like the rest of the work and stop viewing 10/I as an appendix to 9, but as the first movement of a new direction for the composer. The rest of the work still sounds incomplete, and not quite Mahler, but close enough to the real thing to be enjoyed without agonizing over it. I have come to favor the Inbal performance above the others

[Petrushka]

I've never agonised over it at all. I got to know the Cooke 'performing version' as long ago as 1974 in the Wyn Morris recording and before I had even heard the 6th! It's a great shame that conductors of an older generation such as Haitink and Abbado have not attempted it. My favourite recording is VPO/Harding and the best live performance I've ever heard was Chailly and the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra at the 2009 Proms.

The 10th is Mahler moving in a new direction and demolishes the myth that the 9th was his farewell to the world.

[amateur51]

As you are now clearly sold on Deryck Ciooke's realisation Rfg you may find it useful to get this remarkable set of Deryck Cooke lecturing about the creation of his performing version. There is also a 'live' Proms performance which is a valuable record of the next stage of Cooke's version's life.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gustav-Mahler-Symphony-No-10/dp/B004H167MI/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363555944&sr=1-3

If you ever find a reasonably priced copy of a performance by National Orchestra of Wales conducted by Mark Wigglesworth it is a worthwhile investment as is the recording by Michael Gielen.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-No-10-Mahler/dp/B000CQM4NS/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363555944&sr=1-2

Happy listening

[Alison]

Plenty of cheapish Wigglesworths on amazon.com.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

About 12 years ago I finally purchased the Inbal/Frankfurt RO recording of Cooke's completion of 10.

Point of order, m'lud: the Cooke is not a "completion" and was never intended to be regarded as such. Cooke called his work "a performing verion of the draft for the" Tenth Symphony - a little cumbersome, perhaps, but strictly accurate: Mahler's various sketches and draft versions contain enough material for anyone who can read Music to be able to hear some superb Music. As not everyone can read Music fluently, Cooke made a performing version of this material so that all lovers of Mahler's Music can hear what it sounds like. His claims are no more than that - his achievement (and those of his collaborators) is much more than that, though: it makes these glorious new sounds (some of the finest Music Mahler ever imagined) available to everyone. A matter for much rejoicing.

[AjAjAjH]

Point of order, m'lud: the Cooke is not a "completion" and was never intended to be regarded as such. Cooke called his work "a performing verion of the draft for the" Tenth Symphony - a little cumbersome, perhaps, but strictly accurate: Mahler's various sketches and draft versions contain enough material for anyone who can read Music to be able to hear some superb Music. As not everyone can read Music fluently, Cooke made a performing version of this material so that all lovers of Mahler's Music can hear what it sounds like. His claims are no more than that - his achievement (and those of his collaborators) is much more than that, though: it makes these glorious new sounds (some of the finest Music Mahler ever imagined) available to everyone. A matter for much rejoicing.

[jayne lee wilson]

It's a masterpiece, and you can't understand Mahler without it. He is youthfully in love - with Alma, and with life, even as he leaves it - he knows he is dying and the agony is intense. Love and the nearness of death - a final cry of defiant joyfulness, a final fading glow. Saying "NO!" to the long-drawn-out, weary ashen breaths of the 9th.

Rattle has been devoted to the piece. The Bournemouth SO one has a freshness, a raw and dynamic energy which is utterly compelling. The Berlin Phil have the greater discipline and burnished tone but still play at the very edge. Sonically I prefer the openness of the BSO reading, but they're both great.
Sanderling's Berlin Symphony reading is more austere but its starker sound (beautifully caught on Berlin Classics in the Christus-Kirche) sets off the emotional drama vividly.
Gielen/SWR is excellent too, if not quite on the same level of intensity as Rattle or Sanderling.

As Petrushka said, the Chailly/Leipzig Proms 2009 performance was unforgettable - and Chailly's Berlin RSO recording is warmly eloquent and as intense as any.
Cooke's performing version has been well-served on disc, all the way back to Ormandy and Wyn Morris. The music inspires their devotion.

[richardfinegold]

As you are now clearly sold on Deryck Ciooke's realisation Rfg you may find it useful to get this remarkable set of Deryck Cooke lecturing about the creation of his performing version. There is also a 'live' Proms performance which is a valuable record of the next stage of Cooke's version's life.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gustav-Mahler-Symphony-No-10/dp/B004H167MI/ref=sr_1_3?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363555944&sr=1-3

If you ever find a reasonably priced copy of a performance by National Orchestra of Wales conducted by Mark Wigglesworth it is a worthwhile investment as is the recording by Michael Gielen.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Symphony-No-10-Mahler/dp/B000CQM4NS/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363555944&sr=1-2

Happy listening

I heard some excerpts from the Cooke lecture, when it was broadcast on the radio here, but regrettably never heard the complete talk. And to answer ferny, I know that Cooke himself said he didn't complete it, but for me, that is the best way of understanding what he did and the term that I shall continue to use.
Any comments on the Wheeler or Mazzeti versions? My understanding is that they are significantly different in sound.
And finally--if most of us welcome the piece as an integral part of the Mahler canon, then why has it been left out of other threads that discuss the Mahler symphonies? I suggest that many people, such as myself, while we admire and enjoy the piece, and recognize it as a Mahler creation, simply are still unwilling to concede it full "status". I feel the same way when I read a "realization" of Dickens The Mystery of Edwin Drood. The attempts are fascinating, and perhaps would have closely resembled what Dickens would have written. Or not--both Dickens and Mahler were noted for deviating from set plans as the spirit would move them.

[Bryn]

Plenty of cheapish Wigglesworths on amazon.com.

Beware of the recording with the Melbourne band. That performance is in a quite different (lower) class to that given in Nottingham with the BBCNOW.

[Thropplenoggin]

It's a masterpiece, and you can't understand Mahler without it.

Don't. Be. Silly.

Of course you can.

[BBMmk2]

Well, i think JLW, must be seeing something withy this work, other than us, imo Thropps? I see it as Derycke Cooke's realisation of what mahler might have donme. But, my goodness, what atowering masterpiece iti s!! I have Chailly's and Rattle's(his account with the berliners).

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I see it as Derycke Cooke's realisation of what mahler might have donme.

No, no, no, no, no, no, NO!!!!
It's Cooke's realization of what Mahler actually did.

But, my goodness, what atowering masterpiece iti s!!

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, YES!!!!

[Hornspieler]

I heard some excerpts from the Cooke lecture, when it was broadcast on the radio here, but regrettably never heard the complete talk. And to answer ferny, I know that Cooke himself said he didn't complete it, but for me, that is the best way of understanding what he did and the term that I shall continue to use.
Any comments on the Wheeler or Mazzeti versions? My understanding is that they are significantly different in sound.
And finally--if most of us welcome the piece as an integral part of the Mahler canon, then why has it been left out of other threads that discuss the Mahler symphonies? I suggest that many people, such as myself, while we admire and enjoy the piece, and recognize it as a Mahler creation, simply are still unwilling to concede it full "status". I feel the same way when I read a "realization" of Dickens The Mystery of Edwin Drood. The attempts are fascinating, and perhaps would have closely resembled what Dickens would have written. Or not--both Dickens and Mahler were noted for deviating from set plans as the spirit would move them.

A very nice summary, Richard.
The work is quite pleasing to listen to and I think that Deryck Cooke did a fine job in expanding upon Mahler's sketches,, but as far as I am concerned, that does not alter the incontravertible fact that Mahler did not write ten symphonies! - unless you consider as I do that "Das Lied" is as much a symphony as his other nine.

JLW: If you want to understand Mahler's symphonies, listen to them conducted by Dr Bruno Walter, his friend and champion.

Enjoy Deryck Cooke's suggestions for what they are - inspired speculation.

HS

[Bryn]

A very nice summary, Richard.
The work is quite pleasing to listen to and I think that Deryck Cooke did a fine job in expanding upon Mahler's sketches,, but as far as I am concerned, that does not alter the incontravertible fact that Mahler did not write ten symphonies! - unless you consider as I do that "Das Lied" is as much a symphony as his other nine.

JLW: If you want to understand Mahler's symphonies, listen to them conducted by Dr Bruno Walter, his friend and champion.

Enjoy Deryck Cooke's suggestions for what they are - inspired speculation.

HS

Indeed, he wrote 11 (including DLvdE). That he did not fully orchestrate and revise the '10th' (11th) is true, but he did write it, as the published edition of the Mahler/Cooke et al score makes crystal clear. Please do not try to present your opinions as "incontravertible[sic]". They incontrovertible, either.

[Thropplenoggin]

Indeed, he wrote 11 (including DLvdE). That he did not fully orchestrate and revise the '10th' (11th) is true, but he did write it, as the published edition of the Mahler/Cooke et al score makes crystal clear. Please do not try to present your opinions as "incontravertible[sic]". They incontrovertible, either.

The pedant gets hung by his own petard.