Vaughan Williams: The symphonies

[Bryn]

Bryn, I have something similar, though I'd be happy to send you mine in case it's any better than yours - let me know.
The 1940s broadcast conducted by Boult (now on Albion) has more atmospheric conducting and is a set I'm delighted to have (in spite of crumbly sound). Even so, Groves and the BBC Northern SO are very good in the 70s remake and the acting cast is terrific.

Incidentally, according to BBC genome, the first broadcast of the Groves/Gielgud version was Sunday 1 May, 1977. And on relistening to the start of the recording I have, it's certainly not bad.

Many thanks for the offer, makropulos. I will PM you. My recording was seriously compromised by living in the vicinity of the Crystal Palace 405 line television transmitter at the time, plus the use of basic quality C120 cassette.

[Barbirollians]

[QUOTE=seabright;545243]

Barbirolli also took the Ninth with him to either his Boston or late 1950s New York tours

JB conducted the NYPO in RVW8 on January 1, 2 and 3, 1959 (source: Howard Shanet's "Philharmonic") but never the 9th with them at that time, so it would be interesting to know with which orchestra he performed it. Stokowski had just given the 9th its US Premiere in Carnegie Hall with his own hand-picked orchestra of New York musicians (25 September 1958) and the broadcast was issued on Cala (CACD 0539). It would be interesting to have details of the JB performance, though I doubt if any commercial studio recording of the "Scherzo" matches Stokowski's ebullient reading ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3DApLXA0ww

The source for that is Michael Kennedy's bio of Barbirolli . I will check it to see if there are any more details .

One thing that has always interested me is that there appear to be no recordings , or even radio recordings of Barbirolli's pretty lengthy tenure with the Houston SO .

[Nimrod]

Hi Barbirollians

Just been reading this topic which has been going since December, good to see interest in V-W being sustained. Like me, amongst others, you have a liking for the Barbirolli interpretations. I can say that he conducted all of them in the following 'quantities':= 1 =twice; 2 x 25 times; 3 x5 times: 4 x 10; 5 x 38; 6 x 69; 7 x 18; 8 x 79; 9 x 4.

Guess which was his favourite!! The Tallis Fantasia clocks in at 119 times! Regarding the 9 th in the USA, he may have taken the ninth, but extensive research by the Royal Academy of Music shows that he only performed the 8th.In fact all 4 performances of it were in the UK. The history of JB's performing life has been documented in a book 'Barbirolli A Chronicle of a Career' just available from the Barbirolli Society. It documents every concert, every artist, location and orchestra and is quite exhausting to read such was his herculean workload.

Regarding Houston concerts, the contract with the local radio station stated that any recordings must be destroyed 2 months after broadcast. Only off the air tapes exist, and they aren't very good quality.
Nimrod

[Barbirollians]

Hi Barbirollians

Just been reading this topic which has been going since December, good to see interest in V-W being sustained. Like me, amongst others, you have a liking for the Barbirolli interpretations. I can say that he conducted all of them in the following 'quantities':= 1 =twice; 2 x 25 times; 3 x5 times: 4 x 10; 5 x 38; 6 x 69; 7 x 18; 8 x 79; 9 x 4.

Guess which was his favourite!! The Tallis Fantasia clocks in at 119 times! Regarding the 9 th in the USA, he may have taken the ninth, but extensive research by the Royal Academy of Music shows that he only performed the 8th.In fact all 4 performances of it were in the UK. The history of JB's performing life has been documented in a book 'Barbirolli A Chronicle of a Career' just available from the Barbirolli Society. It documents every concert, every artist, location and orchestra and is quite exhausting to read such was his herculean workload.

Regarding Houston concerts, the contract with the local radio station stated that any recordings must be destroyed 2 months after broadcast. Only off the air tapes exist, and they aren't very good quality.
Nimrod

Cheers Nimrod well that explains the lack of Houston recordings - very illuminating . I am not surprised the Sea Symphony was at the bottom of his list - it certainly is mine of VW's symphonies .

[cloughie]

Hi Barbirollians

Just been reading this topic which has been going since December, good to see interest in V-W being sustained. Like me, amongst others, you have a liking for the Barbirolli interpretations. I can say that he conducted all of them in the following 'quantities':= 1 =twice; 2 x 25 times; 3 x5 times: 4 x 10; 5 x 38; 6 x 69; 7 x 18; 8 x 79; 9 x 4.

Guess which was his favourite!! The Tallis Fantasia clocks in at 119 times! Regarding the 9 th in the USA, he may have taken the ninth, but extensive research by the Royal Academy of Music shows that he only performed the 8th.In fact all 4 performances of it were in the UK. The history of JB's performing life has been documented in a book 'Barbirolli A Chronicle of a Career' just available from the Barbirolli Society. It documents every concert, every artist, location and orchestra and is quite exhausting to read such was his herculean workload.

Regarding Houston concerts, the contract with the local radio station stated that any recordings must be destroyed 2 months after broadcast. Only off the air tapes exist, and they aren't very good quality.
Nimrod

Nimrod
A very interesting contribution to the thread - the book looks like a fascinating read and the destruction of the Houston tapes appears to me a lamentable travesty on a parallel to Beeching destroying the branch lines in Cornwall.

[seabright]

Stokowski was Barbirolli's predecessor in Houston and the same question about his broadcasts there came up in a Yahoo Group Forum devoted to his recordings. Evidently a woodwind member of the Houston Orchestra recorded a whole batch of Stokowski and Barbirolli broadcasts but steadfastly refused (or refuses, if he's still around) to let them be heard by anyone else. This was evidently on the grounds that doing so would get him into hot water with the American Musicians Union. I did see a Barbirolli /Houston Mahler 5 from 1966 on You Tube a while back but searching for it again has yielded no results, so I guess the up-loader has deleted it. Isn't it ridiculous that what could be splendid radio broadcasts from over half-a-century ago are still governed by union or copyright rules when they should be made available to the public, in much the same way as great paintings from the past are available in art galleries. However, maybe the Barbirolli Society knows about these Houston broadcasts but can do nothing about them, due to the dog-in-a-manger attitude referred to above.

[vibratoforever]

As well as the Mahler 5 with the Houston SO on You Tube there was for an even briefer time a Mahler 1 with the same forces. The 5th was recorded in Carnegie Hall on tour and the sound was passable. Everything I have heard that was recorded in Houston has been in very poor sound that is a real barrier to enjoyment, including some Strauss and Berlioz, on a still extant Blogspot site.

[Flosshilde]

Stokowski was Barbirolli's predecessor in Houston and the same question about his broadcasts there came up in a Yahoo Group Forum devoted to his recordings. Evidently a woodwind member of the Houston Orchestra recorded a whole batch of Stokowski and Barbirolli broadcasts but steadfastly refused (or refuses, if he's still around) to let them be heard by anyone else. This was evidently on the grounds that doing so would get him into hot water with the American Musicians Union. I did see a Barbirolli /Houston Mahler 5 from 1966 on You Tube a while back but searching for it again has yielded no results, so I guess the up-loader has deleted it. Isn't it ridiculous that what could be splendid radio broadcasts from over half-a-century ago are still governed by union or copyright rules when they should be made available to the public, in much the same way as great paintings from the past are available in art galleries. However, maybe the Barbirolli Society knows about these Houston broadcasts but can do nothing about them, due to the dog-in-a-manger attitude referred to above.

There's nothing dog in the manger or ridiculous about copyright or union rules that are designed to protect people's livelihoods. It seems to me to be entirely reasonable that someone should make what were in effect bootleg recordings for his own purposes (to remember his performances, as a reference) but not wish to get himself into trouble by sharing them.

('Dog in the manger' means someone who doesn't have any use for something but won't let anyone else have it, which I don't think applys here. Anyway, I think the dog has a bad press - it was probably a cold, hungry badly treated stray who was using the hay for a nice warm comfortable bed on a cold night.)

[cloughie]

There's nothing dog in the manger or ridiculous about copyright or union rules that are designed to protect people's livelihoods. It seems to me to be entirely reasonable that someone should make what were in effect bootleg recordings for his own purposes (to remember his performances, as a reference) but not wish to get himself into trouble by sharing them.

('Dog in the manger' means someone who doesn't have any use for something but won't let anyone else have it, which I don't think applys here. Anyway, I think the dog has a bad press - it was probably a cold, hungry badly treated stray who was using the hay for a nice warm comfortable bed on a cold night.)

It's maybe more a pity that EMI who at the time had Barbirolli under contract did not record the Houston orchestra in studio conditions. Too costly because the Houston not in the top U.S. League or maybe recording with the Halle, London and other European orchestras was preferred. Also a pity that EMI did not do a RVW cycle with JB. Then that would have duplicated Boult. Live recordings on record were not the norm back in the 60s.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Cheers Nimrod well that explains the lack of Houston recordings - very illuminating . I am not surprised the Sea Symphony was at the bottom of his list - it certainly is mine of VW's symphonies .

Not near the bottom of my list though - it's in the top 3.

[Barbirollians]

Not near the bottom of my list though - it's in the top 3.

Too long and rambling for my taste ….

[Barbirollians]

There's nothing dog in the manger or ridiculous about copyright or union rules that are designed to protect people's livelihoods. It seems to me to be entirely reasonable that someone should make what were in effect bootleg recordings for his own purposes (to remember his performances, as a reference) but not wish to get himself into trouble by sharing them.

('Dog in the manger' means someone who doesn't have any use for something but won't let anyone else have it, which I don't think applys here. Anyway, I think the dog has a bad press - it was probably a cold, hungry badly treated stray who was using the hay for a nice warm comfortable bed on a cold night.)

As we know such recordings were prohibited but many have turned out to be invaluable even in poor sound . The refusal to share such recordings for commercial purposes is a dog in the manger attitude if the copyright issues can be resolved and a refusal to share is done out of selfishness and exclusivity but I do not see any reason why such a person should be criticised for not sharing them on YT and the like . In most cases I should imagine many holders of such recordings do not share them for numerous other reasons that are not selfish such as not expecting them to have any interest to others , health etc

[Nimrod]

cloughie,

It's a fascinating book and a monument to how much music making you can pack into 70 years! The Chronicle of Performances in the hardback edition covers no less than 497 pages with typically 9 concerts per page(! ) dating from April 1911 to July 1970. The paperback edition comes with all this Chronology on a CD. Fancy conducting Mahler 2nd three nights in a row in Milan in 1959? I wonder if they sold out every night? In Tel Aviv Mahler 2 for five nights, though not sequentially, in June 1960. And you also see how keen he was to take V-W and other British music across the world. Fascinating!

[Nimrod]

Barbirollians,
I noticed that a few posts ago you asked if anyone had heard the V-W 4th by JB and the BBCSO, a live broadcast; yes I've got it and a very thoughtful performance it is too, gritty, powerful and trenchant. Not quite as quick as V-W or Previn or most recent performances but none the worse for it. I doubt you'd be disappointed! Super playing by the BBCSO and for 1950 a quite good sound.

[Flosshilde]

As we know such recordings were prohibited but many have turned out to be invaluable even in poor sound . The refusal to share such recordings for commercial purposes is a dog in the manger attitude if the copyright issues can be resolved and a refusal to share is done out of selfishness and exclusivity but I do not see any reason why such a person should be criticised for not sharing them on YT and the like . In most cases I should imagine many holders of such recordings do not share them for numerous other reasons that are not selfish such as not expecting them to have any interest to others , health etc

I assumed that the 'dog in the manger' comment was applied to the orchestra member who had recorded the broadcasts but didn't feel able to share them for perfectly good reasons. I think the comment "if the copyright issues can be resolved" begs rather a lot of questions. I think we should also remember that the technology for producing records wasn't as 'quick & easy & cheap' as it is now, & orchestras would have been dependent on having a recording contract with a major label, rather than starting their own as so many orchestras do now.

But what really irritates me is the assumption now that people have an automatic right to be able to access everything, especially free, & if anyone says 'no' they throw a tantrum.