Andrew Clements Disses Mahler's Fifth

[Roehre]

... this being Mahler, is that a criticism? Isn't part of the thisness of Mahler an apparent conjunction - or rather disjunction - of disparate parts; of heartfelt yearning clashing against absurd pastiche... Why should it be seen to be a bad thing here that things don't "quite hang together"?

It's not a bad thing at all.
The discussion is whether Clements rightly or less so does dissess Mahler 5 as "not hanging together". Based on the evidence of the genesis of the work (sketching, the re-scorings, circumstantial evidence) there is some truth in this, and -as I wrote already- the composer was well aware of this.
Does this disqualify the symphony's qualities?
By no means.

[Serial_Apologist]

I thought this would turn into a penalty shoot-out.

[Flosshilde]

There exists a book about Mahler 5, accompanied by a CD on which RoyalCGO/Chailly play some extracts of 5 in the original as well as in the present orchestration, which cannot be described otherwise than as a revelation.

Do you have any further details? Amazon has a book published (it says) in 1940, but looks as if it has a CD attached to the front cover - http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Sound--C...6111292&sr=1-3

[mathias broucek]

Personally I too find it and the 7th less structurally coherant than Mahler's other symphonies.

However even leaving aside my own views AC's views don't seem unreasonably negative. It's not like he spent 1/2 the review on the work.

[Nick Armstrong]

1-1. Not just cogently argued but really quite beautifully put.

Oh he's a beautiful putter, our vindebourgogne!

[PJPJ]

1-1. Not just cogently argued but really quite beautifully put.

Shouldn't that be 2-0?

To Clements?

Much maligned, in my opinion.

[EnemyoftheStoat]

I reckon he needs the points.

[Roehre]

Do you have any further details? Amazon has a book published (it says) in 1940, but looks as if it has a CD attached to the front cover - http://www.amazon.co.uk/New-Sound--C...6111292&sr=1-3

Flosshilde, That's the one, published IIRC in 1995.

[Flosshilde]

Thanks Roehre. Unfortunately, at £60, I think I'll have to see if Glasgow City libraries have it.

[Alison]

Have to confess I do seek out AC's reviews while not bothering with the
Geoff Browns and Fiona Maddox's of the critical world.

A couple of us were saying that the Fifth was our least favourite Mahler symphony
on the original LPO/Jurowski thread.

I was moved to listen to LPO/Tennstedt this afternoon, for the first time in ages, and still havent quite recovered.
An absolutely phenomenal performance and it feels inappropriate to add to any comments about the quality of the symphony !

[Tony Halstead]

Likewise, I have to very carefully choose my time to listen to the Barbirolli/ NPO. Mahler 5th as it takes me several hours to come down to earth.
I am deliberately ignoring all this recent nonsense about the 'hanging together' of one of the very greatest symphonies of the 19th century.

[Serial_Apologist]

one of the very greatest symphonies of the 19th century.

But not of the 20th, then?

[Thropplenoggin]

Likewise, I have to very carefully choose my time to listen to the Barbirolli/ NPO. Mahler 5th as it takes me several hours to come down to earth.
I am deliberately ignoring all this recent nonsense about the 'hanging together' of one of the very greatest symphonies of the 19th century.

I'd be interested in hearing a more in-depth rebuttal from such a fan and musician. I'm not musically savvy enough to argue for and against in terms of symphonic structure, nor know the work sufficiently (or Mahler, having only come to him this year) to judge by my ears.

[Nick Armstrong]

I was moved to listen to LPO/Tennstedt this afternoon, for the first time in ages, and still havent quite recovered.
An absolutely phenomenal performance and it feels inappropriate to add to any comments about the quality of the symphony !

Was that the live one, Alison, on 13th December ?1988, I think? One of the best concert experiences of my life, that

[Bryn]

Was that the live one, Alison, on 13th December ?1988, I think? One of the best concert experiences of my life, that

That would be the one Alison is referring to, without doubt!

As to Cementine and his superfluity of adjectives, let them hang together.