Carl Nielsen Symphonies

[Thomas Roth]

Frosty the snowman. Me? I´m a gentle house cat.

[Bryn]

Nay, 荒らし

At the risk of being ludicrously esoteric...

Well foldy-roll.

[pastoralguy]

Has anyone mentioned the late Jack Thompson with the (R)SNO on Chandos? (Recorded when the orchestra was having an identity crises having been the Royal Scottish orchestra and the National orchestra of Scotland!)

Very straightforward accounts, well recorded.

[Nick Armstrong]

Well foldy-roll.

[PJPJ]

Reviews:

half-way down the page:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Oct12/DL_News_2012_20.htm

and

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2012/Oct12/Nielsen_2_3_6220623.htm

[Bryn]

Since our old friend mahlerei is so fond of it, I have decided to give the Gilbert a try. £6.80 (including p&p) in not too much to stake on this horse, I hope

[jayne lee wilson]

The gripes of Roth is funny and witty. But then it went overboard with chinese symbols and IKEA.
Caliban, the Bernstein/Mahler NYPO have all been remixed and remastered efter the Royal Edition. His Nielsen has not been remastered.

Jayne, your "review" of the Gilbert/Nielsen is a disgrace and I think you will have to eat your words on subsequent listenings. Yes, the slow movement is very slow, but so was Chung - and all the better for it. Opinions differ, but when you don´t understand a composer´s language you might be better off not saying anything. I recently received a letter from a person who doesn´t like Nielsen´s third. How could I, he asked, say so many nice things bout it. All I could answer was that it is not necessarily the fault of the composer if people don´t like the music. It could be something lacking with the listener.

Well, I've listened to it twice already, and compared various passages to Chung, Kuchar, Blomstedt et al. All of whom sound better and have a more natural sense of the music's flow. I still find the Gilbert - as, I specify, a 24/96 Flac file - very undistinguished, and find it hard look forward to the 3rd, though I will try it eventually, trying to listen without prejudice of course.

Dear Thomas, a difficulty here is that you don't give specific references - to other performances and recordings, or to particular moments in these - to say why you do or don't like them. It's a lot easier to snipe from the sidelines. You need to come out of hiding and offer it up - commit yourself.

Buzzing around Google to look at the manifestations of that "international acclaim" you referred to reveals the sort of reviews that have you wondering just how much Nielsen, and how often, the writers have experienced. Some refer to a "Nielsen revival", - I'm not sure what that means. The timings for specific movements may or may not be revealing; the 12'18 Gilbert takes for the Melancholic adagio is not that unusual (Bernstein 12'15, Schmidt 12'08, Kuchar 12'17, Chung 12'54) - the problem lies in the phrasing and his use of rubato, which to these personal ears (and those of David Fanning, which you dismissed without reading in your msg.23) is unidiomatic and unconvincing. Despite his evident commitment to the project, Gilbert has not yet found, on the evidence of this symphony, a truly natural way of voicing this music. His Nielsen sounds too generalised as a late-Romantic orchestral idiom. The power is there, but not yet the distinctiveness. If he is going to record all of Nielsen's orchestral music with the NYPO, I hope for better things later on; but a frequent problem with recording live (for whatever pressing economic reason) is the lack of time and opportunity to develop the "palette" of sound, and the peculiar character of phrase, that you may hear, for example, on Da Capo's deservedly prize-winning Dausgaard Nielsen recordings (cf. Da Capo 6.220518). What a shame that conductor isn't doing this, and preferably in Denmark with the Danish NSO!

[Petrushka]

I suggest that you read the review by Jack Lawson, linked above by PJPJ.
Twice, Jayne. Are you serious? I have reviewed records for 30 years and wouldn´t dream of commenting on a disc after only two hearings. That is so amateurish. Also, I have listened to the Gilbert CD in the company of Danish musicians of world renown and all have been blown away by it, so excuse me if your rantings don´t count.
You say that Gilbert has not yet found a natural way of voicing this music. I sugggest that it is you who hasn´t found a way to listen to it. And please, don´t teach me about phrasing and rubati, or the "palette" of sound. Gilbert and his New Yorkers know what they are doing.
By the way, the best Nielsen performance I have ever heard live was Leif Segerstam doing the fourth, not my favorite symphony, in Stockholm.

You would be doing yourself a favour if you couched your responses in less confrontational language, Thomas. You are entitled to your opinion (for that is what it is) just as much as Jayne is hers. Her restrained and polite response to your previous posts can hardly be described as 'rantings' as I am sure, on reflection, you will agree.

We can all agree to disagree about musical intrepretation but points are better made with a less aggressive stance and with politeness toward all contributors whether they share your views or not.

[jayne lee wilson]

Once again Thomas, you're hiding behind other peoples' opinions, and as usual resorting to personal insult. Having had friendly conversations with Jack Lawson in his role as a hifi dealer, I daresay he would put all of this down, very graciously, to a difference of opinion - and of formats, equipment, and our dear old ears.

Jack, of course, is listening to the disc (whether CD or SACD isn't clear - which you Thomas, with your dislike of amateurism, should be concerned about specifying).
"Mahlerei" is indeed listening to the 24/96 file, but as I recall he usually does this via headphones attached to an HRT Streamer mini-DAC (he may have changed it by now) so will undoubtedly have a different impression from my own, which is formed from a MacBook (running a 2010 version of XBMC) feeding a modified Cambridge DacMagic which is currently fed by an outboard (toroidal) power supply - the third one I've tried. This is listened to via ATC Pre-power amps and Harbeth Compact 7(ii) speakers, both of which are, in various forms, versions and modifications, equipment in use in recording studios around the world today. (My apologies to the forum for these specifics, which cannot avoid sounding immodest. I'd get my coat on but it's 01:30 and freezing.)

In signing off of this thread, I can only wish that you would use your oft-claimed, loudly asserted, but rarely demonstrated, expertise, to enlighten us about the differences which may exist between the 24-bit file, CD and SACD of this recording - which, as Paul Miller, editor of HiFiNews has often pointed out, can be significant. If you are a reviewer you should be able to obtain them free of charge. A note about your equipment might be helpful too. Devils, details, etc...

[soileduk]

荒らし

Since our old friend mahlerei is so fond of it, I have decided to give the Gilbert a try. £6.80 (including p&p) in not too much to stake on this horse, I hope

...............And where from? you fiscal genius.

[soileduk]

Nay, 荒らし

At the risk of being ludicrously esoteric...

That's the spirit.

[Demetrius]

Well apart of the obvious and probably unbridgablement about Gilbert,

Jayne has suggested a few other recordings which she prefered, which have not been much discussed due to the valiant defense for the Blomstedt and Gilbert recordings; As it is, I stumbled upon the set by the Janacek PO/Kuchar a while a go; Jayne's comments made me listen to them (up to No 3, will venture on later this day) - and I enjoyed them quite a bit.

Thing is, I have nothing to compare them to, nor probably the skills to discern between fine and very fine recordings.

What I'm wondering about is whether Kuchar
a) is seen as clearly inferior to other recordings (Blomstedt?)
b) is seen as more or less on par, but slightly less ... enticing/good/inspiring ...?
or c) hasn't been listened to, therefore not producing any comments

as a matter of fact, I am tempted to pick up Blomstedt just to do my own little amateur 2 times listening comparison but, oh so much to buy, so little money

edit: corrected the worst mistakes

[richardfinegold]

Thomas, you state that you are a gentle house cat. I am allergic to cats. I used to own a cat, and I must have become sensitized during this period. My daughter owns a cat (Viola, named for 12th Night) and I can't go inside her apartment; she became engaged over the weekend and if grandchildren are forthcoming I will fervently hope that she chooses to replace it with a dog. I have more than a few patients that own multiple cats and see me in my office covered with dander. I had to tell one of them a few days ago that she would either have to find another Physician or else completely clean the dander off before her appointment as I was just so uncomfortable being in the room with her.
Some cat owners are very insensitive to the harm that they may be causing in others, they same way that smokers can be insensitive to others. Perhaps this
is your issue. Perhaps you don't know how to disagree with someone without personalizing the discussion. We are discussing our mutual love for music here. There is no reason to be slinging personal invective. If you disagree with someone's opinion, you are free to state your reasons why, and leave it at that. If you feel the need to insult someone while expressing your disagreement, why not join one of the many on line forums devoted to Politics, where such behavior is the norm. Personally, I like to visit here for erudition and the civility. In today's world, these are increasingly rare commodities.

[Madame Suggia]

I'm new to Nielsen but I do enjoy his fifth symphony

SFO Blomstedt

[Roehre]

..... I thought Nielsen was the subject......

Really ????????

For some reason I got the strong impression that recording and performance qualities are the subject. I haven't read a word yet re either Nielsen the composer or his symphonies.
Why are they important, are they really important , what is their intricate value e.g.?.

I am afraid this is completely and utterly independent from the way recordings were made, remastered, re-issued and from the way they are interpreted.

But: I haven't read one single word regarding this all