Carl Nielsen Symphonies

[richardfinegold]

Digital recordings can be remastered. Many have been re released as 20 bit or 24 bit remasters (as oppossed to their original incarnation in 14 or 16 bit). They also can be digitally remastered as Direct Stream Digital (DSD) instead of Pulse Code Modulation (PCM). Most up sampling remasters are done in DSD, although they sometimes get converted back to PCM in playback.
Back on topic, I think that Radio 3 should spend a week devoted to Nielsen symphonies. How about it, Auntie Beeb?

[Pabmusic]

...Sibelius 1 and 6 are also relatively rarely performed. I don't think I've ever heard either of these composer's first symphonies performed live...

Not sure I'd agree about No. 1. It is certainly one of only two Sibelius symphonies (No. 2 is the other) that I'd not expect to raise much comment if programmed by a good amateur orchestra (unlike, say, No. 5, which would be a talking point for weeks before the concert).

I've been to at least two professional performances.

[jayne lee wilson]

The SFSO Blomstedt is by far the finest cycle yet and there is no need to remaster it. The sound is perfectly fine and gives a fair picture of the hall. Maybe Gilbert can reach the same heights, or even higher. His first SACD/CD is wonderful and the sound is fantastic. I sometimes laugh out loud when I read the sound ratings in Gramophone or from some other British listeners - what kind of equipment do you own? But then, many of you like Rattle as well, so....

But what comparisons have you made? Have you tried the Blomstedt alongside Kuchar or Chung (see msg.9)? The BIS issues of the latter used to carry warning stickers about the dynamic range, and with good reason!
It is possible that the early 90s original Blomstedt SFSO CDs are different from the Double Deccas of 1999 - I've found this strikingly to be the case with Rattle's CBSO recordings from Warwick Uni Butterworth Hall from the1980s - the original Angel CDs often sound superior to later reissues. The best of them are very fine indeed, set back in mid-hall, sharply detailed with a huge dynamic range (cf. Debussy Images, Sibelius 3&7, Haydn 60/70/90 etc.) - and note the engineers: Christopher Bishop, Andrew Keener, Mike Clements... quite a roster.

Oh, and if you really want to Rattle the rafters - try the Toshiba remaster of his Bartok Mandarin/Concerto for Orchestra.

I'll get told off for listing equipment here - PM me about it if you wish...

[Sir Velo]

Interesting stuff, Jayne. I will now re-audition both the Blomstedt late 80's Decca original CDs and Double Deccas with new ears (don't ask why I've got both - temporary case of amnesia!) to listen for evidence of tampering (or remastering if you prefer)!

Of course, some of the difference in sound quality between the Blomstedt and Kuchar may be down to microphone placings, choice of hall etc, don't you think?

[Dave2002]

a progamme of Tchaikovsky 1 and Sibelius 1 would surely have them spilling out onto the pavements.....
Sorry, OT.

(Edit, heard an amateur orchestra playing Winter Daydreams just the other week. great stuff.)

Is that a negative comment or a positive one? I'd jump at the chance to hear such a concert by a professional orchestra. Tchaikovsky 2 and Sibelius 2 would also work for me.

[Alf-Prufrock]

The Schmidt recordings have been praised on this thread a couple of times. I myself always held them in high regard, though I could hear a few smudgings. I always put that down to he LSO playing in a cold hall during a cold winter when there was no heating available. I can actually feel the coldness in their recording of the fifth - it seems to emanate almost physically out of the loudspeakers. If my memory serves me right (and as I reached my seventies I found that it often didn't) they recorded the set during the miner's strike and/or Edward Heath's three-day week, so the players must have been frozen through. It is a wonder we got more than just a few squeaks and scrapes.

[richardfinegold]

The Schmidt recordings have been praised on this thread a couple of times. I myself always held them in high regard, though I could hear a few smudgings. I always put that down to he LSO playing in a cold hall during a cold winter when there was no heating available. I can actually feel the coldness in their recording of the fifth - it seems to emanate almost physically out of the loudspeakers. If my memory serves me right (and as I reached my seventies I found that it often didn't) they recorded the set during the miner's strike and/or Edward Heath's three-day week, so the players must have been frozen through. It is a wonder we got more than just a few squeaks and scrapes.

The beginning of the 5th for me suggests the imagery of mists on a frozen fjord, so freezing the players might get them in the mood. It would have the opposite
effect for the heat and flash of the 4th, however.

[Thomas Roth]

What comparisons have I made? Well, I have lived with Nielsen almost all my life and I have listened to every single LP and CD released, nearly anyway. I don´t read Gramophone anymore and you say that David Fanning didn´t like the Gilbert 2 & 3. I would worry if he liked it. It is a magnificent recording, try it! About remasterings - as little as possible please. Don´t tamper with the sound unless it is absolutely necessary. A bit of hiss don´t hurt and if you remove it you also remove other sounds. We are in the hands of the technicians and the format doesn´t matter if the product is badly recorded or mastered. But a Blu-ray Audio from Norwegian 2L is something to write home about. I have spend some time listening to and comparing the Solti Ring on CD and Blu-ray Audio and the latter wins hands down. No compression, a warm and open sound. My favorite recording is Britten Sinfonia da Requiem and Sea Interludes with Previn and LSO on EMI.

[jayne lee wilson]

All that classical remastering usually tries to do is give you a clearer view of the original - self-evidently, some do this with more "intervention" than others. Take the 24/96 Decca Legends of the Bohm /VPO Bruckner 4 - it is palpably superior to the Double Decca issue in treble purity, dynamics and clarity. All anyone from Mohr&Layton to Tony Faulkner have done is the best they can with the tools of the time. High-definition remastering often reveals original tapes to be better, sometimes worse, than previously thought.
At least we can agree that the Previn/LSO recording you mention is top-class!

[richardfinegold]

About remasterings - as little as possible please. Don´t tamper with the sound unless it is absolutely necessary. A bit of hiss don´t hurt and if you remove it you also remove other sounds. We are in the hands of the technicians and the format doesn´t matter if the product is badly recorded or mastered. But a Blu-ray Audio from Norwegian 2L is something to write home about. I have spend some time listening to and comparing the Solti Ring on CD and Blu-ray Audio and the latter wins hands down. No compression, a warm and open sound. My favorite recording is Britten Sinfonia da Requiem and Sea Interludes with Previn and LSO on EMI.[/QUOTE]

I think that over simplifies. Blu Rays do sound great, no argument there, but remastering in 20 bit or higher DSD has benefitted many recordings immeasurably. Examples:
Arrau Beethoven Sonatas--from claustrophobic to at least listenable
Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto Oistrakh/Ormandy The original digital mastering was all soloist; the current version is much more balanced and realistic, not to mention wonderfully detailed.
Szell/Cleveland Brahms 1--no comparison between the two

The best example I can give is the Bernstein/Mahler set on Sony. Try the 7th Symphony. The original lp was garish, remixed as if it would be played by listeners exclusively on American AM radio. The first CD version improved the dynamic range but still sounded like crap. The version in the boxed set fixes the whole thing, bringing out the beauty of the playing of the NY Phil for the first time.
I simply defy you to listen to this remastering and compare it to any of it's predecessors and tell me with a straight face that you think the original is better.

[jayne lee wilson]

Very good example Richard - I bought the 1998 Bernstein Century CD of the 7th and was very disappointed by the dull, subfusc sound; the later DSD remaster (in the 2009 box) is marvellous, could almost have been recorded yesterday, and reveals it as one of the great 7ths!

[Dave2002]

Very good example Richard - I bought the 1998 Bernstein Century CD of the 7th and was very disappointed by the dull, subfusc sound; the later DSD remaster (in the 2009 box) is marvellous, could almost have been recorded yesterday, and reveals it as one of the great 7ths!

That's very interesting. I think I've got several versions of Bernstein in 7 - and probably 6, 8 and 9 too. I assume we are considering the NYP versions. Are the Mahler recordings in the Bernstein Symhony edition up to the latest standards, or is there another set I should buy?

I have to say that some of the NYP recordings I've heard recently do sound a lot better than I expected them to, based on previous CD issues. Sadly work and other things limit the amount of time I have to check out things like this, and money is also a factor. I still wonder if buying some of the now rare CBS/Sony SACDs of recordings by conductors such as Walter, e.g the Brahms symphonies - (was the Dvorak 8 on SACD also?) - would show that the recordings were actually much better than we had thought. There are quite a lot of issues though, if the remastering changes the balance and mix, and also if the tapes have deteriorated.

[Bryn]

About remasterings - ...

The best example I can give is the Bernstein/Mahler set on Sony. Try the 7th Symphony. ... The version in the boxed set fixes the whole thing, bringing out the beauty of the playing of the NY Phil for the first time.

Which boxed set? I don't have the most recent one but do have this one:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31F5DD8JHYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

It gets the description "Original recording remastered" but perhaps the later box has still more recent remastering efforts to offer. I never did get that recording on LP, only being able to afford the Abravanel at the time.

[mathias broucek]

The best of them are very fine indeed, set back in mid-hall, sharply detailed with a huge dynamic range (cf. Debussy Images, Sibelius 3&7, Haydn 60/70/90 etc.) - and note the engineers: Christopher Bishop, Andrew Keener, Mike Clements... quite a roster.

Aaaaaaaaargh! Am trying to cut down and you've tempted me into buying the Haydn! (Was very cheap, however.)

[hafod]

Mahler Symphonies - Lenny NYPO

Which boxed set? I don't have the most recent one but do have this one:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31F5DD8JHYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

It gets the description "Original recording remastered" but perhaps the later box has still more recent remastering efforts to offer. I never did get that recording on LP, only being able to afford the Abravanel at the time.

That is the set I have and since it was (for me) a considerable improvement on the lps I have not hitherto enquired further - until your post that is. It looks as though a further upgrade may now be called for.

Duggan considered the sound on this later set a great improvement - a 'clincher' as he put it.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2009/Sept09/Mahler_Bernstein_88697453692.htm

Further views below:

http://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B005SJIP1E/ref=cm_cr_dp_syn_footer?k=Gustav%20Mahler%3A%20The%20Complete%20Symphonies%20%26amp%3B%20%20Kindertotenlieder&showViewpoints=1

There is an even later reissue (presumably the same remastering as the previous link) - reviews below.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gustav-Mahler-Complete-Symphonies-Kindertotenlieder/dp/B005SJIP1E/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT1_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2PS3G3NOJ16NT&coliid=I3HVU2DBEQF4AC