Klemperer's Bruckner

[Petrushka]

I like Klemperer's 6th better than Petrushka, but he's right to imply that the praise given to it has distracted from others. Barenboim is very good in Chicago, and Rozhdestvensky's USSRSSO one from 1985 is probably my favourite. Haitink, live with the Staatskapelle should be in the top 5 too. Norrington's SWR effort is one of his finest discs. The live VPO 5th is one of Klemperer's greatest performances.

The famous Klemperer 6th has as its chief merits an orchestral sound lacking all romantic or sensuous excess, phrasing of directness and inevitability, and the sense of all tempi being derived from one basic pulse. Looking forward to Venzago!

I wonder if Jayne has unwittingly (or perhaps not quite so unwittingly) put her finger on the reason why I find Klemperer's Bruckner 6 so difficult to love.

This evening I treated myself to a first hearing of Otto's 1957 Bruckner 8 with the Cologne RSO. This is simply magnificent until he throws it all away in the those final three notes done in a rush instead of spaced out to give a real sense of climax. I was so involved in the performance I never noticed any cut in the finale!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Hmm. I'd agree with the "lacking all Romantic or sensuous excess" if the key word is "excess": there is all the sensuousness the work needs, but OK ensures that this never is never allowed to distort the Musical argument and pace.

I also agree with Jayne's praise for Barenboim in Chicago (Richard Osborne in a BaL in the early '80s said that if Klemperer got the most from the outer movements and Barenboim from the second and third: Klemperer got the overall laurels) and Rozhdestvensky. Norrington would probably be my own recommendation to anyone wanting a single recording of the work.

[Barbirollians]

Any others views on Klemperer's 7th . I am very fond of it as it was my introduction to the work and having gone though Haitink, Chailly, Dohnanyi on CD when the Klemperer was unavailable - I am very glad to see it back .

Barbirolli, Walter and Karajan EMI being my other favourites in this work .

[Sir Velo]

But yes, the Celi is a great conception thrillingly played.

Can wading through a ploughed field be described as "thrilling"?

[ostuni]

'Thrilling'? Well, yes, the playing is certainly thrilling, per se: very strong (but not over-dominant) brass, rich string sound. But the tempi leave me only wanting to hear it again as a sort of special-occasion wallow... I'm working my way through my collection of 8ths at the moment: with timings for the slow movement ranging around the 25-27-min mark (the BRSO Maazel in the bargain box feels slow at 28.10; I find a lot of this well played, well recorded, cheapo box just a bit lugubrious for my taste)(the Schuricht at 21.45 is the outlier in the opposite direction; this movement spoilt by a scandalously inept edit which splices in an extra half bar on the opening page). But looking at the Celi booklet and seeing over 35 minutes - I haven't yet felt strong enough to listen!

Back to Klemperer's 6th. Yes, jlw is spot on with her #12. And the divided violins are a great bonus, for me. No missing/added bits, but still some very clunky edits in the slow mvt which tend to jump out at me now I know they're coming. And I do find that English oboe sound from the 60s very hard to take - what were players of the time after?! Absolutely no beauty of sound at all... All rather better these days, thankfully - the CBSO's youngish principal last Thursday was sounding very lovely in Simone Young's 8th (though the 1887 version does go on a bit in places...)

[BBMmk2]

So soundsx not a good idea to purchase Klempe's Bruckner?

[mathias broucek]

'Thrilling'? Well, yes, the playing is certainly thrilling, per se: very strong (but not over-dominant) brass, rich string sound. But the tempi leave me only wanting to hear it again as a sort of special-occasion wallow... looking at the Celi booklet and seeing over 35 minutes - I haven't yet felt strong enough to listen!

It ***IS*** a special occasion wallow. It's pointless to treat Munich period Celi it like other recordings. Just accept that you will hear clearer textures than you imagined possible (the "new" 4th from Vienna on Sony is staggering) and as a result all sorts of stuff you'd never heard before!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So soundsx not a good idea to purchase Klempe's Bruckner?

It sounds good to me, Bbm - 6 CDs for about £2.50 each with some of the best Bruckner put to disc? Not, perhaps, versions to recommend as the only recordings of these works (but someone could do a lot worse!) but tremendous readings nonetheless. (I quite like the fragile plangency of the solo oboe in the second movement of No6, by the way.) If I didn't already own them (except No8) in some shape or form I'd leave an extra mince pie out to bribe Santa!

[BBMmk2]

Sold Ferney! You dont think the Adagio, be too slow, like people say, in No.6?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Sold Ferney! You dont think the Adagio, be too slow, like people say, in No.6?

Not in my opinion, Bbm - and the Coda of this Movement is gloriously touching. (It's the cut in the Finale of No8 that would be my caveat.)

[jayne lee wilson]

A striking, often-overlooked, point about Celi's Munich PO 5th and 6th is that only the slow movements are exceptionally long. The rest is within the usual range - the 6th's timings are 17'02/22'01/8'18/15'08, and in the 5th we have 22'43/24'14(!)/14'33/26'10...

Can't recall how I felt listening to that 5th's adagio - it's possible I failed to make it to the end, as in "just going out and maybe some time"....

[mathias broucek]

A striking, often-overlooked, point about Celi's Munich PO 5th and 6th is that only the slow movements are exceptionally long. The rest is within the usual range - the 6th's timings are 17'02/22'01/8'18/15'08, and in the 5th we have 22'43/24'14(!)/14'33/26'10...

Can't recall how I felt listening to that 5th's adagio - it's possible I failed to make it to the end, as in "just going out and maybe some time"....

I too must revisit the 5th's Adagio with Celi. I don't think that movement can take a slow tempo in the same way as, say, the Adagio of the 8th. And his Tokyo 5th is slower still at 23.21 / 24.37 / 14.23 / 26.43......

[BBMmk2]

A striking, often-overlooked, point about Celi's Munich PO 5th and 6th is that only the slow movements are exceptionally long. The rest is within the usual range - the 6th's timings are 17'02/22'01/8'18/15'08, and in the 5th we have 22'43/24'14(!)/14'33/26'10...

Can't recall how I felt listening to that 5th's adagio - it's possible I failed to make it to the end, as in "just going out and maybe some time"....

that's the thing that is worrying me too, Ferney, When people say about that cut in N0.8. Quite perlexing as to why, from such a Brucknerian as Klemperer?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

that's the thing that is worrying me too, Ferney, When people say about that cut in N0.8. Quite perlexing as to why, from such a Brucknerian as Klemperer?

Bruckner's 8th was the first work OK ever conducted in England (at a Sargent/Cortauld concert) and he only made cuts in his very old age. There's a Cologne Radio SO recording from the '50s that doesn't cut, and Boulez (who's made an excellent recording of the work) first heard any Bruckner when OK conducted the 8th in the 60s. "Mista da Klemps" "justified" the cuts at the time thus:

I have made cuts in the last movement of the Eighth Symphony. In this case it seems to me that the composer was so full of musical invention, that he went too far.
Brucknerians might argue that I intend these cuts to be considered as a guideline for others- which is not my intention. I can only contemplate taking responsibility for my own interpretation.

Just goes to show: even Otto nods!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

There's a Cologne Radio SO recording from the '50s that doesn't cut

... available in this set:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Brahms-Bruckner-Otto-Klemperer/dp/B005DCMVOI/ref=pd_ys_qtk_general_recs_69

... which seems even better value at a quid a disc; 'tho' I suspect recorded sound would make Nipper bark in derision - and no 5, 6 or 9, sadly.