Barbirolli - favourite recordings

[BBMmk2]

Yes that counts, as that how it was originally issued as!

[Barbirollians]

Then it has to be that record - enormously obvious a choice as it is .

[BBMmk2]

Gerontius, with me, methinks.

[Dave2002]

I saw both of these conductors in action, and what a contrast! Regrettably I only ever saw Boult once with a decent orchestra, the BBC Symphony in the Albert Hall at a Prom including Elgar 1st, but I sat dirctly in line with the podium but across the arena and the symphony evaporated into thin air! I had been most used to Birmingham Town Hall, (close encounters of an orchestral kind!) or the Free Trade Hall which always sounded excellent to my ears. I heard both conductors do the Planets and Boult was better, not least because he managed to galvanise the CBSO into playing half decently and I preferred his way with the work! I rate him and Andrew Davis as the best interpreters. My first Gerontius was Boult/CBSO at the Triennial Festival in the late '60's and that was very good too. Boult always said 'Let the music speak for itself'..........whereas I find JB lifts the notes from the page and breathes life into them. Each is a valid approach, but I know which I'd want on a desert island! ( Mind you, Boults long baton might be useful as an aerial...........)

I saw/heard Boult several times with different orchestras and venues, including I think one concert with Yehudi Menuhin at the RAH. The first half was Mendelssohn - violin concerto - rather sad, while the second half was Elgar - which was one of the most beautiful performances of anything I've ever heard.

I heard Barbirolli with the Halle do Mahler 6 [I'm pretty sure it was that one] at the Free Trade Hall. I made the journey specially to hear that - not perhaps only because of the conductor, but because there were few performances of Mahler 6 at that time. I don't remember much about it, other than the cowbells. My memory is going slightly, because I probably also heard Mahler 7 around that time, and I remember that Hugo D'Alton played mandolin - which has to be in Mahler 7. That could have been in Liverpool - most likely under Groves.

I don't actually recall being blown away by that one off Barbirolli performance, though I have friends who said that he could be really good live - though there were also some tales about his punctuality for the start of the concerts which I'll pass over for the present.

I was very impressed by some of Boult's live performances - though not all. His attention to detail and also to acoustics was something which hardly any other conductors at the time (and perhaps since) worry about. As mentioned in at least one of his books, players at the back of the orchestra have to play just slightly ahead of the beat in order for the audience to hear the whole orchestra in synchrony. That's perhaps between 20-80 milliseconds, which is not a great time, but it is surprising how in audio a few milliseconds can make a difference. Unlike other conductors he was perhaps less concerned about players listening to each other, which is a great thing to have in chamber music. As he said, in an orchestra if the players behind the violins listen to them, they will come in a fraction late, and if the people behind them listen to the players in front of them they will come in later and so on. The audience will perceive the accumulated delay. On the other hand, orchestras in which the players do listen carefully but don't try to anticipate the beat may sound more spontaneous and comfortable.

It just occurs to me that this could be one reason why some recordings sound different from concert performances. In a recording such time delays could effectively be reduced by multi-miking, though in recordings of live concerts if the players do it Boult's way, the timing errors would be exacerbated. In Boult's time, most recordings were made with only a few microphones at the front of the orchestra, so this should not have been a problem.

Boult's books on music - taken from Wikipedia, are shown below:

Boult on Music: Words from a Lifetime's Communication. London: Toccata Press. 1983. ISBN 0-907689-03-5.
A handbook on the technique of conducting (7th ed.). Oxford: Hall. 1951 [1920]. OCLC 155756343.
My Own Trumpet. London: Hamish Hamilton. 1973. ISBN 0-241-02445-5.
The St. Matthew Passion: its preparation and performance. London: Novello. 1949. OCLC 1547942. (with Walter Emery)
Thoughts on Conducting. London: Phoenix House. 1963. OCLC 892145.

Re Nimrod's post, Boult was particularly good in Vaughan Williams, and the Planets, but he was also good as an accompanist.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Gerontius, with me, methinks.

That Live Elgar #1 with the Hallé: it always leaves me speechless. (A remarkable feat in itself!)

Until someone unearths a bootleg Gerontius with Ferrier! (Much as I adore Baker, and think the studio Gerontius the best on record, to have a complete Ferrier Angel, conducted by Barbirolli, is one of my fantasies.)

[Ferretfancy]

Dave 2002

I was interested in your comments about the problem of time delays between front and back of the orchestra, and you surmise that these could be reduced by multi miking in studio recordings. Since the advent of digital recording, it has been quite comment to put delays into microphone feeds to the mixer desk when they are being used as spot mikes. The aim is to create the same subjective distance as the more distant main mikes, in whatever configuration. As an example, a clarinet can be heard at the correct distance, but its level can be raised in subsequent mix down while maintaining reasonable phase coherence.
That's the idea anyway, but personally I hate heavily mixed down orchestral balances, whatever the trickery involved. Simple techniques as used in the earliest days of stereo,can still sound more convincing than some of today's efforts, whether from concert performances or from the studio.

You mention Boult, I don't know how much say he had with the engineers, but his performances were very lucky with recording quality.

[johnb]

That Live Elgar #1 with the Hallé: it always leaves me speechless. (A remarkable feat in itself!)

Until someone unearths a bootleg Gerontius with Ferrier! (Much as I adore Baker, and think the studio Gerontius the best on record, to have a complete Ferrier Angel, conducted by Barbirolli, is one of my fantasies.)

Of course you know that Barbirolli had been prevented from recording it with Ferrier because they were contracted to different record companies.

[cloughie]

That Live Elgar #1 with the Hallé: it always leaves me speechless. (A remarkable feat in itself!)

Until someone unearths a bootleg Gerontius with Ferrier! (Much as I adore Baker, and think the studio Gerontius the best on record, to have a complete Ferrier Angel, conducted by Barbirolli, is one of my fantasies.)

Even with Borg's accent?

[amateur51]

Gerontius, with me, methinks.

Which part are you singing, BBM?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Of course you know that Barbirolli had been prevented from recording it with Ferrier because they were contracted to different record companies.

Yes; that's why it'd have to be "bootleg"

And Borg's accent doesn't bother me as much as it does others, cloughie; admitedly, I'd've preferred John Carol Case - but there's nothing in Newman's poem to say that the Priest wasn't from Finland! And he sings the notes in tune and with the right quality of voice.

[vibratoforever]

By chance I selected to start a university course in Sheffield in 1969 and heard Barbirolli conduct Mahler 2, Bruckner 8 and Messiah in his final season with the Halle.

There have been some comments about the differences between Barbirolli live and in the recording studio and the contemporary Mahler 6s with the NPO (EMI and Testament) illustrate the difference. The quicker tempi live are shown also when comparing live and studio accounts of Heledenleben and Sibelius 5, amongst others.

There is a Houston SO performance of Mahler 5, performed in New York, which shows the same difference.

The Barbirolli recording I would part with last is that of the larghetto of Elgar 2 (1964). I have not heard any recording where his skill with the string section is better illustrated, though the Bruch concerto with Milstein and PSONY comes close.

[Barbirollians]

I do envy you - when i went to university we had a Halle in the doldrums and Stanislaw Skrowacewski going through the motions .

I do remember a marvellous Charles Groves /RLPO Elgar 2 though . Really opened my ears to the work.

[amateur51]

Interesting stuff, vibratoforever and welcome

There is a Houston SO performance of Mahler 5, performed in New York, which shows the same difference

Is this commercially available? If so, could you provide a link please?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Even with Borg's accent?

Italians, Germans and Russians must feel the same way when they hear British opera singers.
Borg's was the first I ever heard, so it feels right, even after hearing native English singers.

[Barbirollians]

Marvellous as Dame Janet is and splendid as is Barbirolli's conception of the work Sargent's pioneering recording has the edge for me with its wonderful soloists.