Beethoven's 8th: What's it all about?

[Petrushka]

Ah, welcome back Roehre. You have been very much missed.

[verismissimo]

B himself was not exactly sure what the work would be (about) either.
Ever asked yourself why the key of 8 is F, as this is the only key B used twice in his 9 completed symphonies?
The 8th started to be sketched as a piano concerto - and within these concertos we don't have one in F.

The 8th is the only symphony without a real slow mvt (and in that sense similar to opus 18/4).
But the metronome-mvt (Ta ta ta lieber Mälzel WoO 162 - possibly a forgery by Schindler, but that's another and rather complicated story) was definitely not conceived as such from the beginning. It was nearly an afterthought - it emerges after aprroximately one and a half pages of sketches for this mvt (and therefore the sketches are debunking the story that the mvt is based on forementioned Canon WoO 162)

Ever looked at the orchestration?
The trumpets are in F. At that time these were military instruments, hardly -if ever- used in "non-military" music.
B was mocked for this. IMO this is an "influence" of his use of brass in Wellington's Victory (which btw is called a Symphony as well !)

It has been mentioned already, but the 8th is despite its Mozartian/Haydnesque size and point of departure a forward looking work: the melody for the horns in the trio of the scherzo an example. It is not by chance Stravinsky -not the most outspoken Beethoven admirer to use an understatement- loved this, and pointed at it in Jeu de Cartes.

After B moved from pianoconcerto to symphony, he decided to write a trilogy of symphonies, another work was planned, most likely in d-minor, but that 9th might have been in b-minor as well. Unfortunately nothing came of this.

All these things can contribute to feeling a little bit unsettled, listening to this work.

Wish I'd said that. Welcome back Roehre.

[Flay]

Many years ago Anthony Hopkins did a 'Talking About Music' programme re Beethoven 8. What I remember most was his description of the 2nd mt not as a tribute to the metronome but as frustration with an alarm clock - the final phrases representing increasing frustration with the malfunctioning instrument and it being dashed to pieces against the nearest wall! Normal service resumed in mt 3...

I prefer this clock idea rather than the metronome. The first movement is all "tick-tocks." In fact there are tick-tocks popped into the minuet against the triple-time (e.g. before the bassoon solo). There are plenty of bong bongs in the finale too. It makes much more sense of the whole piece to me.

[Thropplenoggin]

Many thanks, Roehre, for your extremely thorough and thought-provoking response. It has given me plenty to mull over during my next encounter with this symphony.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

B himself was not exactly sure what the work would be (about) either.
Ever asked yourself why the key of 8 is F, as this is the only key B used twice in his 9 completed symphonies?
The 8th started to be sketched as a piano concerto - and within these concertos we don't have one in F.

The 8th is the only symphony without a real slow mvt(and in that sense similar to opus 18/4).
But the metronome-mvt (Ta ta ta lieber Mälzel WoO 162 - possibly a forgery by Schindler, but that's another and rather complicated story) was definitely not conceived as such from the beginning. It was nearly an afterthought - it emerges after aprroximately one and a half pages of sketches for this mvt (and therefore the sketches are debunking the story that the mvt is based on forementioned Canon WoO 162)

Ever looked at the orchestration?
The trumpets are in F. At that time these were military instruments, hardly -if ever- used in "non-military" music.
B was mocked for this. IMO this is an "influence" of his use of brass in Wellington's Victory (which btw is called a Symphony as well !)

It has been mentioned already, but the 8th is despite its Mozartian/Haydnesque size and point of departure a forward looking work: the melody for the horns in the trio of the scherzo an example. It is not by chance Stravinsky -not the most outspoken Beethoven admirer to use an understatement- loved this, and pointed at it in Jeu de Cartes.

After B moved from pianoconcerto to symphony, he decided to write a trilogy of symphonies, another work was planned, most likely in d-minor, but that 9th might have been in b-minor as well. Unfortunately nothing came of this.

All these things can contribute to feeling a little bit unsettled, listening to this work.

Ah! The return of the Master! (Hope the holiday was a good one.)

Just to niggle: although it's often performed as if it were an Adagio, the second movement (Allegretto) of the Seventh is also not "a real slow movement".

[John Shelton]

Ah! The return of the Master! (Hope the holiday was a good one.)

Just to niggle: although it's often performed as if it were an Adagio, the second movement (Allegretto) of the Seventh is also not "a real slow movement".

The Eighth for me is 'about' absolute exuberance and energy, and wit raised to a transcendental level. The 'metronome' movement for me pays a kind of tribute to Haydn's wonderful games with time and has it stopped / will it stop / can it stop / alas it has stopped because it must. "Muß es sein?" / Es muss sein!"

I love the work.

[Bryn]

While I was aware that the metronome story was a Schindler invention, I had not come across the alarm clock explanation before. What sort of provenance does that one have? Seems no more likely to me. I feel the game-playing with Papa Haydn's tempo tricks the more likely, but it is only a feeling.

[amateur51]

The Eighth for me is 'about' absolute exuberance and energy, and wit raised to a transcendental level.
I love the work.

'Exuberance' is exactly the right word, Hey Nonymous

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Just to niggle: although it's often performed as if it were an Adagio, the second movement (Allegretto) of the Seventh is also not "a real slow movement".

Talking of the 7th, Karajan's performances of the second movement got faster as he got older. His final version goes at a real lick, and his dance-like first movement is refreshing too.

[John Shelton]

'Exuberance' is exactly the right word, Hey Nonymous

Thanks ams. In a good performance the 8th is one of my all time / non-Classic FM Top 10 symphonies . The way the opening bars just sweep you up. And then that finale .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6-NwOOCASs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiUCjC6dKH4

(Not sure what the relevance of the picture is!)

[Roehre]

Ah! The return of the Master! (Hope the holiday was a good one.)

Just to niggle: although it's often performed as if it were an Adagio, the second movement (Allegretto) of the Seventh is also not "a real slow movement".

Many thanks to all of you who observed my (fully unexpected) absence and welcomed my return (here and by PM-ing)


FHG: looking at the tempo indications that strictly speaking is obiously correct .
But where the "metronome"/"clock"-movement is rather quick by its nature, the opposite applies IMO to the 2nd mvt of 7, which is (said to be) a pilgrim's song/slow march.

[Roehre]

While I was aware that the metronome story was a Schindler invention, I had not come across the alarm clock explanation before.

The "clock-work" is (more than the metronome) not documented at all - it is suggested (or sometimes: not dis-approved of) by a couple of rather well-known Beethoven commentators and scholars (e.g. Hopkins, Riethmüller, Dahlhaus), nothing more.

The Schindler-Metronome-story is much more complicated.
Beethoven did not use the Canon WoO 162 as point of departure as he started to sketch the movement.
Therefore the canon existed in symphonic form prior to its composition.
The fact that it did not show up before 1844 and that Schindler amended/falsified a conversation booklet to prove its authenticity doesn't mean the Canon is a Schindler-falsification itself.

Schindler the composer was rather badly trained -not to say: incompetent-, without much imagination, and without much experience. His greatest work, a Mass in D (!) [in the library of the Beethovenhaus in Bonn], shows that his compositional thinking was restricted, and as such completely void of harmonic and melodic finesses and niceties.

However, the harmonic structure at the end of the canon Ta ta ta lieber Mälzel WoO 162 is considered to be beyond
Schindler's compositional capacities (a discussion regarding this see Harry Goldschmidt's article in Beethoven Studien 2).
This raises the question: if not Schindler, and if not Beethoven, who then?
A working hypothesis is, that such a Canon did exist, that Beethoven did write one, or that such a thing was sung in one of Vienna's Caffee houses, but that it went astray. Schindler then did reconstruct the little work from his memory (explaining the little bit clumsy text setting on the word Mälzel e.g), and therefore it may be a true beethovenian work, come down to us through Schindler and in Schindler's reconstruction of the work.
Therefore it is not unjust to define Ta ta ta... as "possibly" spurious, as Beethoven's authorship of its original cannot be excluded.

Btw: there is a nice parallel story regarding Schubert's Kuppelwieser waltz. That we possess only in a transcription by Richard Strauss. He made it as he stayed at the Kupelwieser family where the young ladies played it from memory, as Schubert's original had gone astray. Definitely Schubert, but literally through other people's minds.

[EdgeleyRob]

B himself was not exactly sure what the work would be (about) either.
Ever asked yourself why the key of 8 is F, as this is the only key B used twice in his 9 completed symphonies?
The 8th started to be sketched as a piano concerto - and within these concertos we don't have one in F.

The 8th is the only symphony without a real slow mvt (and in that sense similar to opus 18/4).
But the metronome-mvt (Ta ta ta lieber Mälzel WoO 162 - possibly a forgery by Schindler, but that's another and rather complicated story) was definitely not conceived as such from the beginning. It was nearly an afterthought - it emerges after aprroximately one and a half pages of sketches for this mvt (and therefore the sketches are debunking the story that the mvt is based on forementioned Canon WoO 162)

Ever looked at the orchestration?
The trumpets are in F. At that time these were military instruments, hardly -if ever- used in "non-military" music.
B was mocked for this. IMO this is an "influence" of his use of brass in Wellington's Victory (which btw is called a Symphony as well !)

It has been mentioned already, but the 8th is despite its Mozartian/Haydnesque size and point of departure a forward looking work: the melody for the horns in the trio of the scherzo an example. It is not by chance Stravinsky -not the most outspoken Beethoven admirer to use an understatement- loved this, and pointed at it in Jeu de Cartes.

After B moved from pianoconcerto to symphony, he decided to write a trilogy of symphonies, another work was planned, most likely in d-minor, but that 9th might have been in b-minor as well. Unfortunately nothing came of this.

All these things can contribute to feeling a little bit unsettled, listening to this work.

The messageboardmeister returns,what a super post.
Welcome back Roehre,you have been missed.
Now,where were we up to with my music history lessons?.

[Richard Tarleton]

The messageboardmeister returns,what a super post.
Welcome back Roehre,you have been missed.
Now,where were we up to with my music history lessons?.

Hear hear . Now if only this had been #2, it would have saved our friend Thropplenoggin an awful lot of trouble....

[Thropplenoggin]

Hear hear . Now if only this had been #2, it would have saved our friend Thropplenoggin an awful lot of trouble....

Très bien dit.