Beethoven's 8th: What's it all about?

[rauschwerk]

And the final chord in this publication of the Pathétique: http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/us...ull_Score_.pdf

But not in all the other publications on imslp, which makes me wonder if there is an editorial hand involved here.

Tovey has this to say:-

"Early editions mark the last bar fff, a mark which, though used by Beethoven on a very few sublime occasions, here suggests the agitated editor who could not control his feelings in bars 128-131."

[amateur51]

Priceless!! I've never seen him conduct before! Thanks!
Many thanks, Calibs - duly corrected




... but do you know something we don't??

Many thanks, Calibs - duly corrected

[richardfinegold]

Many thanks, Calibs - duly corrected

Actually, Ormandy's real name isn't Ormandy. He changed it to that after he came to the states on an Ocean Liner called the Normandy. So I guess that gives the rest of us a license to mangle his name any which way that we choose.
I wasn't aware that Hogwood used such a large orchestra. I was trying to make a point about period orchestras in general (which tend to be smaller than the conventional Orchestra) and Hogwood is the only "period" cycle that I own, although if he uses that large of an orchestra it really does muddy the waters. i will pull Hogwood's 8th of the shelf today.

[Pabmusic]

Actually, Ormandy's real name isn't Ormandy. He changed it to that after he came to the states on an Ocean Liner called the Normandy...

That may be so, but his real name was Jenő Ormándy-Blau.

[Tony Halstead]

Actually, Ormandy's real name isn't Ormandy. He changed it to that after he came to the states on an Ocean Liner called the Normandy. So I guess that gives the rest of us a license to mangle his name any which way that we choose.
I wasn't aware that Hogwood used such a large orchestra. I was trying to make a point about period orchestras in general (which tend to be smaller than the conventional Orchestra) and Hogwood is the only "period" cycle that I own, although if he uses that large of an orchestra it really does muddy the waters. i will pull Hogwood's 8th of the shelf today.

It wasn't just a 'Hogwood whim'.... apparently there are documentary records of certain 'festive' performances with huge orchestras during B's lifetime. As has been previously pointed out, the AAM / Hogwood recording of B7 on the same CD also uses very large forces, as does the 9th ( 8 horns ) on another CD.

[mathias broucek]

And then there's Celibidache's Brahms 2nd in Munich....

[3rd Viennese School]

Beethoven’s 8th was intended as one of THREE symphonies for London. I think.

That means that no.9 would have also been a lighter/ dancier one as well, maybe? Before he got sidetracked and had that long dark spell.

There are some experiments going on in no.8, I think. Not entirely me this one, although I like the old fashioned sounding minuet.

No.4 is an easier answer. He started no.5 after no.3 then relised it was going to take some time. So he did a “Classical” symphony in the meantime.

3VS

[MickyD]

It wasn't just a 'Hogwood whim'.... apparently there are documentary records of certain 'festive' performances with huge orchestras during B's lifetime. As has been previously pointed out, the AAM / Hogwood recording of B7 on the same CD also uses very large forces, as does the 9th ( 8 horns ) on another CD.

It is such a wonderful and rare chance to hear a massed period orchestra. I also remember a terrific concert on the South Bank back in 1991, during the Mozart bicentennial celebrations - The Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment combined with the forces of The Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century to play some big band Mozart!

[David-G]

It is such a wonderful and rare chance to hear a massed period orchestra. I also remember a terrific concert on the South Bank back in 1991, during the Mozart bicentennial celebrations - The Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment combined with the forces of The Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century to play some big band Mozart!

Yes, I remember that. It was the final event in a fortnight of marvellous Mozart concerts with the OAE and the O18C. (The only one in which they played together.)

[Pabmusic]

....He started no.5 after no.3 then relised it was going to take some time. So he did a “Classical” symphony in the meantime.

You're right, but it was a little more than something to do while he waited for inspiration for the C minor work. It was probably money: a commission from the Graf von Oppersdorff. We don't know this for certain, but the composer had spent time that summer at the count’s castle in Silesia, and he received 500 florins from Oppersdorff the next February “for a symphony I have written for him”.

The count got little for his money, though, but promises. It seems he may actually have been promised both the Fourth and Fifth symphonies, only to receive a letter from the composer after the first performance of the 4th in November 1807, telling him that “necessity has forced me to sell to another the symphony I wrote for you – and another one, too”. Beethoven added, “You will probably have formed an unfavourable impression of me”!

[MickyD]

Yes, I remember that. It was the final event in a fortnight of marvellous Mozart concerts with the OAE and the O18C. (The only one in which they played together.)

...and I think it was in the Royal Festival Hall, presumably in order to accommodate them all?

[Dave2002]

Eugene Ormandy and the VPO in 1963 - some lovely shots of the hornplayers & woodwind, lovely playing too, Ormandy very keen on contrasts. I'd never realised what a 'whirler' Ormandy was

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5QcdJ5CVEI

Boult would not have approved. Ormandy's stick is often pointed down, where it can't be seen well. Probably didn't really matter - I suspect the players didn't look at his baton much. Must have been tiring doing all that waving about though, and also often he had the same movements with both hands, including even above his head. Despite that, there are quite a number of pieces where I would prefer Ormandy to Boult, though some the other way, and some where I'd like them both.

[Pabmusic]

Boult would not have approved. Ormandy's stick is often pointed down, where it can't be seen well. Probably didn't really matter - I suspect the players didn't look at his baton much. Must have been tiring doing all that waving about though, and also often he had the same movements with both hands, including even above his head. Despite that, there are quite a number of pieces where I would prefer Ormandy to Boult, though some the other way, and some where I'd like them both.

No, he wouldn't. The biggest problem (if you can call it that - after all, the Philadelphia Orchestra could play well enough for Ormandy) is that the baton is superfluous. In every shot, as far as I can see, Ormandy moves his baton using his elbow, or even his shoulder. The fingers and the wrist don't enter into it. This means he is using more effort that he needs to to convey his wishes. Hence the sweating, I suppose. When the fff chord appears, 25 bars from the end of the first movement, Ormandy has nothing up his sleeve - he can only use gestures he's already used.

He's a good showman. Conducting without a score looks good - but it's only for the audience's benefit. Now Boult would have disagreed with that!

[Boult did record the 8th with the BBC SO in 1932.]

[Flosshilde]

Eugene Ormandy and the VPO in 1963 - some lovely shots of the hornplayers & woodwind, lovely playing too, Ormandy very keen on contrasts. I'd never realised what a 'whirler' Ormandy was

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5QcdJ5CVEI

He might be whirling has arms like a windmill, but the rest of his body is very static, unlike some conductors who seem to be channelling Isadora Duncan!

The orchestra looks very crowded on the stage - I wonder what the acoustics of the hall were like? (I didn't check to see where it was).

[Thropplenoggin]

Humbled by words of kindness, he comes in from the cold, as is the Thropplenoggin way.