Beethoven's 8th: What's it all about?

[cloughie]

There is a story that after Beethoven had performed one of his piano sonatas someone asked him what it meant. Beethoven's response was to sit down and play the whole sonata again.

Perhaps he misheard the question.
Actually I can understand why he liked the 8th more than the 7th, just because its shorter does not devalue it and maybe it has more ideas compacted into its 25 or so minutes.

[MrGongGong]

There is a story that after Beethoven had performed one of his piano sonatas someone asked him what it meant. Beethoven's response was to sit down and play the whole sonata again.

I find the flappy things on the sides of my head are much more use than any words

[Thropplenoggin]

I find the flappy things on the sides of my head are much more use than any words

Are you an elephant?

[salymap]

To me there are far more problems with the 'driven' no 7 and the Eroica. Beethoven knew what he was about.
Composers are free to write as they feel at the time and as I and others have said he loved no 8 'his little symphony'. Sit back and enjoy it

[MrGongGong]

Are you an elephant?

If I was I certainly wouldn't let on to you as you seem to be wearing elephant hunting headgear !

Have you heard it live ?
For me that would be the starting point

[Hornspieler]

I was listening to this in the car today (Konwitzchny) and I just don't get it.

All the other symphonies I can follow:

1 & 2 direct descendents of Haydn and Mozart but also breaking free of classicism towards Romanticism.
3 seems to represent a hero's rise and fall and rise again. Truly Romantic.
4: An unbelievably modern opening, but it still seems to fit in with what's come before
5: A raised middle finger to the Moirai
6: a tone poem to pastoralism
7: a bit schizophrenic with its cosmic grandeur opening, funeral second movement, and then two movements representing 'the apotheosis of the dance'
8: ???
9: seems to represent the cosmos in symphonic form, or man's evolution therein, crowned with an appeal to universal brotherhood.

The 8's opening movement has some dark moments in it but the overall feeling is light, skittish. I just don't get it. Perhaps I need to hear a different version?

All explanations and suggestions gratefully received.

It's a cheerful romp composed by a happy Ludwig who had just been given a gift by his friend Maelzel of a Metronome, which could convey both audible and visual indication of the correct speed to specify Allegro, Andante,Adagio, Lento and their variants.

HS

[Bryn]

Me neither

Thropple, for what it's worth, probably not a lot, I've always felt slightly nonplussed by 8, after the towering heights of 7 which is my favourite (if I had to pick one). Apparently Beethoven preferred 8 to 7 which came as a surprise when I read it. I own several 7's but strangely no 8's.

A fine programme note from Conrad Wilson there. I took to the 8th like a duck to water in my early teens. A major fillip was an LP with the San Francisco Symphony conducted by Monteux. I recall the tempi being much brisker in general than other recordings I had heard. Full of humour as it is, there is far more to it than that alone.

[robk]

When Haydn, who had been dead only three years when Beethoven started the 8th composed quirky, funny symphonies we have no problem. I find it intriguing that Beethoven dashed this one off in four months with the cataclysmic experience of the Eroica and fifth behind him. Could it be a case of The end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. I think this is even more true of the Op 135 Quartet which seems to inhabit a more earthy place than the quartets that preceded it. That would have to be another thread.

[richardfinegold]

I'm really beginning to tire of this forum. The above responses are about as useful as a fart in a spacesuit.

I'm not looking for meaning. I don't see how it fits into his ontogeny as a composer. It seems slightly aberrant, light, throwaway. I can't fathom the music's argument.

It can get cold in Space. A little flatus may be usefully warming.
For me the 8th has always been the twin of the 7th. Both emphasize rhythm more than his previous works, most famously in the "metronome" movement of the 8th.
The 8th is the one LvB symphony that tends to benefit from a period approach. Smaller orchestras tend to sound more lithe and agile. My favorites are Hogwood and Szell/Cleveland.

[Pabmusic]

It's a cheerful romp composed by a happy Ludwig...

Too true. I'm not sure how useful it is trying to find the 'meaning' of any piece of music. First, we have no direct access to the mind of the composer, second, we should not assume that the composer's 'meaning' (even if it could be determined) remained unchanged throughout his life, and, third, we are judging a work of 1812 with the minds and mores of 2012. There is also the unanswerable question of whether any work of art can have a 'meaning' independent of its creator's intention, anyway.

But it makes for a good thread. Beethoven's 8th is a wonderful piece, with a starting point in Haydn and a finishing point way beyond.

[Barbirollians]

Too true. I'm not sure how useful it is trying to find the 'meaning' of any piece of music. First, we have no direct access to the mind of the composer, second, we should not assume that the composer's 'meaning' (even if it could be determined) remained unchanged throughout his life, and, third, we are judging a work of 1812 with the minds and mores of 2012. There is also the unanswerable question of whether any work of art can have a 'meaning' independent of its creator's intention, anyway.

But it makes for a good thread. Beethoven's 8th is a wonderful piece, with a starting point in Haydn and a finishing point way beyond.

I love the 8th - it is just Beethoven having fun . Did he not describe it as " unbuttoned " - there are lots of wonderful performances of it - the aforementioned Szell, Cluytens and probably most of all the 1962 Karajan are my favourites .

[Richard Tarleton]

A fine programme note from Conrad Wilson there

same as my link?

[Pabmusic]

I love the 8th - it is just Beethoven having fun . Did he not describe it as " unbuttoned " - there are lots of wonderful performances of it - the aforementioned Szell, Cluytens and probably most of all the 1962 Karajan are my favourites .

I'm so glad you mentioned Cluytens - I'd completely forgotten that fine set.

[Nick Armstrong]

(I'm not au fait with "FAIS".)

It was you who introduced the concept (a wee bit brutally I thought, particularly given the angelic salymap's willingness to comment on the enquiry).

Btw it's Fart In A Spacesuit...

Beethoven 8 is fine, good genial stuff. It's quite a surprise after the previous ones and just before the 9th (In a way it's always made me think of Shostakovich coming up with his funny 9th after the wartime 7th & 8th and before the epic 10th.)I suppose these chaps needed to relax sometimes.

I love Brahms, but the second remains something I can't really enjoy as much as I feel I ought to....life's too short.

I love it!!

Have you heard Jurowski with the LPO? Give it a whirl: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B...e=UTF8&s=music Terrific stuff!!

[Barbirollians]

Teamsaint - I recommend Boult or Walter Columbia in Brahms 2 if you need to fall for it .