Beethoven's 8th: What's it all about?

[Maclintick]

As a work, it's not much discussed, which is partly why threads like this one and the one I started exist. I doubt I shall ever hear anything in it but I think the reason for its 'survival' isn't that mysterious: it's an uninspired work by a person acknowledged to be one of the greatest creative geniuses who ever lived. That alone will ensure it a kind of immortality. Even Beethoven's less inspired works receive performances/recordings, just as Shakespeare's lesser (and lousy) plays are still produced.

I couldn't disagree more. Beethoven's greatest works are still performed regularly precisely because of their inherent quality, which isn't the case with twaddle such as "Wellington's Sieg". Assuredly, LVB wrote a lot of less-than-stellar material in order to keep body & soul together, & to subsidise his nephew Karl, but the 8th doesn't come into this category. Shakespeare's lesser plays are increasingly appreciated, & seem to find resonance according to contemporary tastes, thus the violence of Titus Andronicus may be more readily digestible in an era of peace and plenty than in a time of war, likewise Timon of Athens in a society riven by the greed of bankers...

[Conchis]

I couldn't disagree more. Beethoven's greatest works are still performed regularly precisely because of their inherent quality, which isn't the case with twaddle such as "Wellington's Sieg". Assuredly, LVB wrote a lot of less-than-stellar material in order to keep body & soul together, & to subsidise his nephew Karl, but the 8th doesn't come into this category. Shakespeare's lesser plays are increasingly appreciated, & seem to find resonance according to contemporary tastes, thus the violence of Titus Andronicus may be more readily digestible in an era of peace and plenty than in a time of war, likewise Timon of Athens in a society riven by the greed of bankers...

I don't think you've understood the point I was making about Beethoven's lesser works.

If Wellington's Victory (which, I'd agree, is one of his lesser works) had been composed by a workaday composer, we'd never have heard of it and it would (probably) never have been recorded. Yet, because Beethoven wrote it, it is considered to be worthy of at least a cursory listen. But I would also classify the 8th as a lesser work (along with the 2nd).

And you name two of Shakespeare's worst plays - bits of Titus might have shock value on stage but as a text, it's doggerel. As to Timon (which I saw last month)....it doesn't work on the stage, though it contains a couple of good speeches.

[Barbirollians]

I don't think you've understood the point I was making about Beethoven's lesser works.

If Wellington's Victory (which, I'd agree, is one of his lesser works) had been composed by a workaday composer, we'd never have heard of it and it would (probably) never have been recorded. Yet, because Beethoven wrote it, it is considered to be worthy of at least a cursory listen. But I would also classify the 8th as a lesser work (along with the 2nd).

And you name two of Shakespeare's worst plays - bits of Titus might have shock value on stage but as a text, it's doggerel. As to Timon (which I saw last month)....it doesn't work on the stage, though it contains a couple of good speeches.

I think that the Second Symphony is an absolute masterpiece - its relative eclipse is due to the towering nature of the Eroica.

The Eighth is enormous fun - Shakespeare’s comedies are perhaps like it in that they require top notch performances . I recall an RSC production of the Comedy of Errors in 1983 that was so brilliant it had teenagers dragged along by their schools in paroxysms of laughter . I was one of them and as a boy in my year said to our
English teacher on the way home “ I was dreading it - it did not seem at all funny when we read it but it was brilliant “

[Conchis]

I think that the Second Symphony is an absolute masterpiece - its relative eclipse is due to the towering nature of the Eroica.

The Eighth is enormous fun - Shakespeare’s comedies are perhaps like it in that they require top notch performances . I recall an RSC production of the Comedy of Errors in 1983 that was so brilliant it had teenagers dragged along by their schools in paroxysms of laughter . I was one of them and as a boy in my year said to our
English teacher on the way home “ I was dreading it - it did not seem at all funny when we read it but it was brilliant “

With C of E, the 'weak text' has actually helped performances, because directors don't feel obliged to approach it in a spirit of reverence - hence, Trevor Nunn's musical version (which looked good in the 70s but hasn't aged well) and the one you saw (with Desmon Barritt as one of the Dromios, if memory serves). But considered purely as a text, it's tacky rubbish - and totally derivative of Plautus. Why were you studying it, anyway? There's nothing to study....

Conversely, plays like Coriolanus are great TEXTS but rarely work in performance (successful productions of the play in the last fifty years can be counted on the fingers of one hand). Ditto Troilus and Cressida (a magnificent text which I saw performed at Stratford last year by actors who seemed to have only the vaguest idea of what they were saying).

[Barbirollians]

With C of E, the 'weak text' has actually helped performances, because directors don't feel obliged to approach it in a spirit of reverence - hence, Trevor Nunn's musical version (which looked good in the 70s but hasn't aged well) and the one you saw (with Desmon Barritt as one of the Dromios, if memory serves). But considered purely as a text, it's tacky rubbish - and totally derivative of Plautus. Why were you studying it, anyway? There's nothing to
Conversely, plays like Coriolanus are great TEXTS but rarely work in performance (successful productions of the play in the last fifty years can be counted on the fingers of one hand). Ditto Troilus and Cressida (a magnificent text which I saw performed at Stratford last year by actors who seemed to have only the vaguest idea of what they were saying).

We weren’t studying it . In those days even comprehensive schools in Essex thought trips to the RSC were generally a good idea.

[french frank]

But I would also classify the 8th as a lesser work (along with the 2nd).

Just listening to the VPO, with Pierre Monteux, an inherited LP which I don't think I've ever played before. I'll let you know whether you're right or not! [Though come to think of it, it very much depends what you're implying by 'lesser work'.]

[Conchis]

Just listening to the VPO, with Pierre Monteux, an inherited LP which I don't think I've ever played before. I'll let you know whether you're right or not! [Though come to think of it, it very much depends what you're implying by 'lesser work'.]

It's one of those works that never sticks in the mind - at least, not in my mind. The only thing I can remember about it offhand is a string passage in the first movement. Really, it's so anonymous it could have been written by Haydn (see elsewhere on this forum).

Its genesis is interesting, though, as the composer was in a deep, near-suicidal depression when he wrote it. Absolutely none of this seems to come across in the music.

[Barbirollians]

Just listening to the VPO, with Pierre Monteux, an inherited LP which I don't think I've ever played before. I'll let you know whether you're right or not! [Though come to think of it, it very much depends what you're implying by 'lesser work'.]

And FF ?

[jayne lee wilson]

Oh God not this again....

[verismissimo]

Oh God not this again....

[pastoralguy]

Oh God not this again....

My feelings exactly! What next? The 'Jupiter' symphony is overrated...? !

[Bryn]

My feelings exactly! What next? The 'Jupiter' symphony is overrated...? !

Somebody wrote a symphony specifically for the RAH organ?

[french frank]

And FF ?

But since I've been asked, I didn't understand the point of the original question It's a symphony by Beethoven: what expectations would you have?

[cloughie]

But since I've been asked, I didn't understand the point of the original question It's a symphony by Beethoven: what expectations would you have?

Who were 1 to 7?

[Conchis]

In a way, I think it’s a good thing when great composers turn out lesser works. It reminds us that they were only human beings, after all. The 8th is certainly a dud an almighty blot on LvB’s copybook but if it wasn’t there, he’s somehow seem more distant, more Olympian than he does does already.

For that matter, I don’t think the Jupiter symphony is one of Mozat’s better works. It’s certainly never done much for me, though it doesn’t represent a total artistic failure as the 8th so obviously does.

Btw: just to prove that my mind remains open to changing, I listened to the 8th again recently in the Szell/Cleveland performance. Nope: it’s still a dud, to my ears.