Beethoven's 8th: What's it all about?

[Barbirollians]

I see that Conchis’s quizzical approach to the 8th is not the first time it has been discussed at length on here.

[Conchis]

I see that Conchis’s quizzical approach to the 8th is not the first time it has been discussed at length on here.

It's poor music, whichever way you listen to it.

[greenilex]

Maybe some of us respond better to the “exuberance “ than others...always and forever my favourite of the Nine.

[Bryn]

It's poor music, whichever way you listen to it.

More like poor listening, I venture to suggest.

[cloughie]

It's poor music, whichever way you listen to it.

Your windup’s getting feeble
Now let’s just get this straight
We’ll all fed up with your jibes and moans
And we love Beethoven’s Eighth!

[Richard Barrett]

More like poor listening, I venture to suggest.

One of the reasons for following and participating in discussions here is surely to find ways into music one might previously have had a problem with... that certainly worked for me in the recent discussions of this piece, which I hadn't thought about very much for a long while. There really must be some depth in a piece of music that has generated so much comment, albeit of a somewhat repetitive nature from some quarters. The question "what's it all about?" would't really occur in relation to much music written before Beethoven's lifetime. Whatever else he achieved, the idea that music could be emotionally complex and multilayered first comes to full explicit fruition with his work; and this is one of the things that (I think) can be heard clearly in his 8th Symphony. Unless one refuses to hear it.

[Barbirollians]

One of the reasons for following and participating in discussions here is surely to find ways into music one might previously have had a problem with... that certainly worked for me in the recent discussions of this piece, which I hadn't thought about very much for a long while. There really must be some depth in a piece of music that has generated so much comment, albeit of a somewhat repetitive nature from some quarters. The question "what's it all about?" would't really occur in relation to much music written before Beethoven's lifetime. Whatever else he achieved, the idea that music could be emotionally complex and multilayered first comes to full explicit fruition with his work; and this is one of the things that (I think) can be heard clearly in his 8th Symphony. Unless one refuses to hear it.

I think Mozart had also produced emotionally complex and multilayered works - I suppose full and explicit might be more moot.

[Richard Barrett]

I think Mozart had also produced emotionally complex and multilayered works - I suppose full and explicit might be more moot.

Yes indeed (Haydn too), but with Beethoven that complexity becomes a central principle and comes fully into focus I think, though it was "in the air" at the time, like Shakespeare did in his time. Maybe Beethoven's 8th has parallels with Shakespearean comedy which are possible to draw out fruitfully.

[Serial_Apologist]

Your windup’s getting feeble
Now let’s just get this straight
We’ll all fed up with your jibes and moans
And we love Beethoven’s Eighth!

That only scans if you recite "Beethoven's" in triplets!

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes indeed (Haydn too), but with Beethoven that complexity becomes a central principle and comes fully into focus I think, though it was "in the air" at the time, like Shakespeare did in his time. Maybe Beethoven's 8th has parallels with Shakespearean comedy which are possible to draw out fruitfully.

Thanks for that insight, Richard - I can see what you're getting at, and it hadn't occurred to me before.

[Conchis]

[QUOTE=Richard Barrett;732398]One of the reasons for following and participating in discussions here is surely to find ways into music one might previously have had a problem with... that certainly worked for me in the recent discussions of this piece, which I hadn't thought about very much for a long while. There really must be some depth in a piece of music that has generated so much comment, albeit of a somewhat repetitive nature from some quarters. The question "what's it all about?" would't really occur in relation to much music written before Beethoven's lifetime. Whatever else he achieved, the idea that music could be emotionally complex and multilayered first comes to full explicit fruition with his work; and this is one of the things that (I think) can be heard clearly in his 8th Symphony. Unless one refuses to hear it.[/QUOTE]

I have tried with this symphony, I really have. I've been trying since....1991.

As a work, it's not much discussed, which is partly why threads like this one and the one I started exist. I doubt I shall ever hear anything in it but I think the reason for its 'survival' isn't that mysterious: it's an uninspired work by a person acknowledged to be one of the greatest creative geniuses who ever lived. That alone will ensure it a kind of immortality. Even Beethoven's less inspired works receive performances/recordings, just as Shakespeare's lesser (and lousy) plays are still produced.

[cloughie]

That only scans if you recite "Beethoven's" in triplets!

Of course - how else!

[Richard Barrett]

it's an uninspired work

As you see, large numbers of contributors disagree with you. So does that mean that "uninspired" is just a matter of opinion, or that you claim access to special knowledge denied to most others' who have written here?

[teamsaint]

As you see, large numbers of contributors disagree with you. So does that mean that "uninspired" is just a matter of opinion, or that you claim access to special knowledge denied to most others' who have written here?

Reponses to music we don’t like , but where there is a decent body of thoughtful opinion to the contrary , are fascinating. If I can’t find a good reason that I don’t like something, then it tends to get parked but marked for revisiting, not least since I want to get out of it what others are getting. Sometimes it will be a specific performance that unlocks the work. More often, I find, it is some other connection, maybe read about, maybe heard, and sometimes just the right moment in life, or musical journey.

And sometimes I find myself liking a work ( Bernstein’s Mass for example) where I am aware of all kinds of elements that I don’t ( or wouldn’t usually) like, but in which something somehow transcends all of that. Despite, apparently, being badly written........

Maybe somewhere deep down there is a lurking sense of failure in an inability to appreciate the things that the good opinion of others suggests we “ should “ get more out of.

[jayne lee wilson]

[QUOTE=Conchis;732468]

One of the reasons for following and participating in discussions here is surely to find ways into music one might previously have had a problem with... that certainly worked for me in the recent discussions of this piece, which I hadn't thought about very much for a long while. There really must be some depth in a piece of music that has generated so much comment, albeit of a somewhat repetitive nature from some quarters. The question "what's it all about?" would't really occur in relation to much music written before Beethoven's lifetime. Whatever else he achieved, the idea that music could be emotionally complex and multilayered first comes to full explicit fruition with his work; and this is one of the things that (I think) can be heard clearly in his 8th Symphony. Unless one refuses to hear it.[/QUOTE]

I have tried with this symphony, I really have. I've been trying since....1991.

As a work, it's not much discussed, which is partly why threads like this one and the one I started exist. I doubt I shall ever hear anything in it but I think the reason for its 'survival' isn't that mysterious: it's an uninspired work by a person acknowledged to be one of the greatest creative geniuses who ever lived. That alone will ensure it a kind of immortality. Even Beethoven's less inspired works receive performances/recordings, just as Shakespeare's lesser (and lousy) plays are still produced.

The problem here is:

Likes/dislikes need no justification; judgements do.
But all you offer are endless unargued/unjustified Restatements/Rationalisations of your Negative Judgement..