Road-testing Period Beethoven Symphony Cycles - Sundry Thoughts

[Acavus]

STILL hovering about whether to buy the new Bruggen... help me out here Bryn... (no pressure like....)

My advice Jayne is don't! I looked forward eagerly to hearing Bruggen's Beethoven on SACD as up to now I have loved his work both live and recorded. What a disappointment, both in terms of recording and performance. In desperation I returned to his earlier Philips cycle and realised what was missing - a clear recorded sound and natural, flowing tempi. There is a detailed review of the set on SACD-net with which I largely concur:

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194

The weird shouting of the chorus during the tenor's opening solo in the last movement of the 9th symphony was the last straw for me - straight into the Oxfam box!

[Dave2002]

The weird shouting of the chorus during the tenor's opening solo in the last movement of the 9th symphony was the last straw for me - straight into the Oxfam box!

Mmmmm. Richmond Oxfam? I could drive over there

[jayne lee wilson]

My advice Jayne is don't! I looked forward eagerly to hearing Bruggen's Beethoven on SACD as up to now I have loved his work both live and recorded. What a disappointment, both in terms of recording and performance. In desperation I returned to his earlier Philips cycle and realised what was missing - a clear recorded sound and natural, flowing tempi. There is a detailed review of the set on SACD-net with which I largely concur:

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194

The weird shouting of the chorus during the tenor's opening solo in the last movement of the 9th symphony was the last straw for me - straight into the Oxfam box!

...At the mercy of conflicting opinions from two deeply respected sets of ears... guess I asked for it.
Hope Osborne or Cowan give the casting vote in Gramophone...

With the Zinman, I liked 1-4 and 8 very much indeed, less happy otherwise, but haven't played them for a few years now.

[richardfinegold]

[QUOTE=Barbirollians;220398]Erich Kleiber's Beethoven was never breathless however. I did not like Zinman's Beethoven that i heard for that reason. Speedy but to what purpose ? I cannot abide performances that turn the funeral march into a funeral jog.

My point exactly. Following LvBs speedy metronome markings (as Zinman does) only make sense if it is done to shape a musical argument, and not to serve as an end in and of itself.

[jayne lee wilson]

Well yes, but after the initial adagio assai in Eroica (ii) all kinds of things happen which certainly can't be played very slowly... if this movement were played similarly by most conductors we would simply stop hearing it. Really, all conductors like Zinman or Norrington are trying to do is to say, let's look at this from another angle... get it away from the museological and the preservative.

[amateur51]

Well yes, but after the initial adagio assai in Eroica (ii) all kinds of things happen which certainly can't be played very slowly... if this movement were played similarly by most conductors we would simply stop hearing it. Really, all conductors like Zinman or Norrington are trying to do is to say, let's look at this from another angle... get it away from the museological and the preservative.

Brava, jlw!

[Rolmill]

You're welcome, AM51! One of my real favourites they did was the Weber Horn Concertino, featuring the deliciously earthy playing of Anthony Halstead...it cheers me up whenever I listen to it.

The HB's Weber overtures recording remains my favourite even now - despite (or possibly because of) the thrilling brass sound often threatening to swamp heroic (and sometimes scrambling) strings.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Really, all conductors like Zinman or Norrington are trying to do is to say, let's look at this from another angle... get it away from the museological and the preservative.

But not quirkiness for its own sake?

[amateur51]

But not quirkiness for its own sake?

I don't get that from what jlw says

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't get that from what jlw says

Agreed, but I get it from what RN does.

[amateur51]

Agreed, but I get it from what RN does.

Oh I know that

[MickyD]

The HB's Weber overtures recording remains my favourite even now - despite (or possibly because of) the thrilling brass sound often threatening to swamp heroic (and sometimes scrambling) strings.

I totally agree, Rolmill...the brass playing of those vintage HB discs sets my blood coursing! I mentioned it earlier on in this thread, but have you ever heard their performance of Cherubini's "Anacreon" overture? It came on a sadly long-deleted 2 CD set of theirs called "Beethoven and the Philharmonic". It's terrific!

[HighlandDougie]

My advice Jayne is don't! I looked forward eagerly to hearing Bruggen's Beethoven on SACD as up to now I have loved his work both live and recorded. What a disappointment, both in terms of recording and performance. In desperation I returned to his earlier Philips cycle and realised what was missing - a clear recorded sound and natural, flowing tempi. There is a detailed review of the set on SACD-net with which I largely concur:

http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194

The Brüggen (cheap from Amazon France) has finally arrived and, while I wouldn't go as far as Acavus in despatching it to the Oxfam box, I'm not sure what to make of it after listening to several of the symphonies. The recording is, as everyone has said, problematically reverberant with detail simply being lost in climaxes. Played in 2-channel SACD at a louder level than usual, the sheer visceral impact of the playing compensates somewhat for the occasional mush - the polar opposite to Krivine's clear if rather dry sound. But if you like Beethoven played fast and assume that all HIPP performances follow that general approach, it may not be for you. A bit like Brüggen channelling late Klemperer (with the odd touch of Celibidache thrown in). I exaggerate but the Eroïca, the first movement of which I've got used to be taken at a blistering pace (from the above-mentioned Furtwängler via Karajan to Krivine) sounds positively slow. I could rather grow to like it and I think that I can understand where Brüggen is coming from, to use that terrible cliché, and in its own way sounds radical but I can see that it would be something of an acquired taste. If, like me, your idea of a good Beethoven cycle is Cluytens rather than Norrington, it's well worth a listen but, if it's Norrington (or Krivine) rather than Cluytens, I'd probably steer well clear.

[AmpH]

I've just ordered Immerseel's new Debussy CD, I think it promises to be good.

I am strongly attracted to that Debussy disc too MD, as well as the reissue of Immerseel's Schubert Symphony cycle later this month. I would be interested to know what you think of the Debussy when you have had a chance to listen to it.

[richardfinegold]

Well yes, but after the initial adagio assai in Eroica (ii) all kinds of things happen which certainly can't be played very slowly... if this movement were played similarly by most conductors we would simply stop hearing it. Really, all conductors like Zinman or Norrington are trying to do is to say, let's look at this from another angle... get it away from the museological and the preservative.

Agreed. I think that Zinman has better musical instincts that Norrington, whose main objective seems to be to call attention to himself for his slavish adherence to the mn markings.