Road-testing Period Beethoven Symphony Cycles - Sundry Thoughts

[Thropplenoggin]

Much earlier this year there was a discussion-within-a-discussion about the Krivine set. It began with a comment from the much missed Chris Newman:



... to which I replied:

The Krivine set as a whole is magnificent, Chris (and not that expensive, I'm sorry to say! ) - the performances lack nothing in incendiary power, but simultaneously manage to convey a dance-like joy in the Music that I've never heard before. Unlike the You Tube video, all repeats are included and audience noise is barely perceptible: in fact the applause at the ends of the works often comes as a shock. Superb playing (must be all the women: more in the 'cello section than in the entire VPO ) and the instrumental "flavours" as well-balanced and exhilerating as a fine single malt.

I was given this set for Christmas, (following several hints!) and it's repeatedly been played since. The CD Review that was so critical about Thielemann was also quite sniffy about these performances (Stephen Johnson occasionally condescending to comment favourably on the odd moment or two): they really missed a "Library Essential" BIG TIME!


Can't say I've noticed this: an excuse (as if any were needed!) to listen to it again, with headphones this time.

Best Wishes.

Thanks for such an in-depth response. Whatever happened to Chris Newman?

[Barbirollians]

Chris Newman sadly died from a stroke in the summer. There is a thread dedicated to him in Plaform 3.

He was always erudite and enthusiastic and to one who never had the good fortune to meet him in every post he wrote on here he came across as a true gentleman .

[amateur51]

The Hanover Band set came out pretty early - in fact, if I remember rightly, the first issue of Symphony No.1 came out on a Nimbus LP with the first piano concerto (with Mary Verney on a Broadwood) and claimed to be the first Beethoven symphony recording on period instruments. It was directed by Monica Huggett, then I think Roy Goodman took over as further issues became available. There was a lot of comment about the cavernous Nimbus sound, but I have to say that and the rather rough edges of the HB are attractive to me. I liked their other discs of Schubert, Weber and Mendelssohn too. And their performance of Cherubini's overture to "Anacréon" is electrifying for me.

Many thanks MickyD. I heard a few of their recordings in the long ago on CDs borrowed from a library but I've not listened to the full set. They were rather remarkable at the time.

[Thropplenoggin]

Chris Newman sadly died from a stroke in the summer. There is a thread dedicated to him in Plaform 3.

He was always erudite and enthusiastic and to one who never had the good fortune to meet him in every post he wrote on here he came across as a true gentleman .

Thanks for the information, B.

[Bryn]

As predicted earlier, I have been listening to the 5th tonight in the CD recording by Krivine and co., and the new SACD recording by Brüggen and his band. For good measure I am now spinning the earlier Brüggen directed CD of the same work. In general, Krivine takes more risks, and for me they pay off. The new Brüggen is in many ways more traditional, though it does, like the Krivine, benefit from Jonathan Del Mar's editorial work on the scores, which post-dates the earlier Brüggen recording. Both Brüggen directed performances seem more polished, but to my ears, somewhat 'safer', (though I hesitate to say 'staid'). They are beautifully wrought performances but tread a little too surefootedly compared to the tight-rope walking of Krivine. I am all too happy to have all three, and many others, available. What I don't hear in any of the three is the compartmentalisation' you write of.

[jayne lee wilson]

Quick back-up from me for the terrific Krivine (lovely comment from dear Chris Newman about all the women in the orchestra - I hadn't seen that before...) and the earlier Bruggen, which latter I've lived with for years and always enjoy returning to... these two sets complement each other well, for reasons Bryn has already touched on.

STILL hovering about whether to buy the new Bruggen... help me out here Bryn... (no pressure like....)

[Bryn]

Quick back-up from me for the terrific Krivine (lovely comment from dear Chris Newman about all the women in the orchestra - I hadn't seen that before...) and the earlier Bruggen, which latter I've lived with for years and always enjoy returning to... these two sets complement each other well, for reasons Bryn has already touched on.

STILL hovering about whether to buy the new Bruggen... help me out here Bryn... (no pressure like....)

Let me listen to a few more first.

Oh, o.k., the recording has a clear, 'live' aura to it. Close attention to the editorial niceties of Jonathan Del Mar is made. Oh, and it's on SACDs, so not only is there a surround option, but the 2 channel stereo is higher definition. I do not regret the premium I paid despite its significantly lower 'pre-order' price via amazon.fr right now.

http://www.amazon.fr/Beethoven-Symphonies-Live-Rotterdam-2011/dp/B008L1GZOK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1352065437&sr=1-1

[Oh, just to add that the concerts recorded took place in de Doelen, Rotterdam, though the booklet does not say whether the Grote Saal or not, but it sounds like it was.]

[richardfinegold]

) David Zinman. The other day, my wife and I watched the abomination that is the Andrew Davies 'Emma'. We had the impression of watching a show with the "fast forward" button it. Listening to the opening of Zinman's Eroica, I was struck by the same sensation. There's fast and then there's Benny Hill theme music fast.

afraid I don't agree with you here, Thropp. Zinman is fast, but there is precedent for these kind of tempos. Try Furtwangler's 1944 Vienna Recording, or Toscanini and Weingartner's recordings from a decade earlier. Herman Scherchen released a version in the 50s that makes Zinman sound like he's doing the hokey pokey by comparison.
The bigger problem with Zinman is that he doesn't effectively shape the music for dramatic climaxes in the manner of those aforementioned conductors. Beethoven's metronome markings are observed, but there is little, rubato, scant shaping of the argument, and ultimately not much point to the music.
However, in comparison to Snorrington's Eroica, Zinman sounds Beethoven reincarnated.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

) David Zinman. The other day, my wife and I watched the abomination that is the Andrew Davies 'Emma'. We had the impression of watching a show with the "fast forward" button it. Listening to the opening of Zinman's Eroica, I was struck by the same sensation. There's fast and then there's Benny Hill theme music fast.

afraid I don't agree with you here, Thropp. Zinman is fast, but there is precedent for these kind of tempos. Try Furtwangler's 1944 Vienna Recording, or Toscanini and Weingartner's recordings from a decade earlier. Herman Scherchen released a version in the 50s that makes Zinman sound like he's doing the hokey pokey by comparison.
The bigger problem with Zinman is that he doesn't effectively shape the music for dramatic climaxes in the manner of those aforementioned conductors. Beethoven's metronome markings are observed, but there is little, rubato, scant shaping of the argument, and ultimately not much point to the music.
However, in comparison to Snorrington's Eroica, Zinman sounds Beethoven reincarnate

Erich Kleiber is really fast - and what energy! But not on period instruments, so a diversion from the thread.
I'm fascinated by period instruments. It's the speculative side of HIPP that gets under my skin.

[Barbirollians]

Erich Kleiber is really fast - and what energy! But not on period instruments, so a diversion from the thread.
I'm fascinated by period instruments. It's the speculative side of HIPP that gets under my skin.

Erich Kleiber's Beethoven was never breathless however. I did not like Zinman's Beethoven that i heard for that reason. Speedy but to what purpose ? I cannot abide performances that turn the funeral march into a funeral jog.

EK's VPO Eroica is to me a finer performance than the Cgebouw and as I recollect a touch slower.

[mathias broucek]

EK's VPO Eroica is to me a finer performance than the Cgebouw and as I recollect a touch slower.

Apparently there were stereo tapes of the VPO version which the geniuses at Decca "lost"......

There are some other nice EK Eroicas including one with the NBC SO and one from December 1955 (Stuttgart) which like the VPO recording has the exposition repeat - radical stuff for the 1950s

[MickyD]

Many thanks MickyD. I heard a few of their recordings in the long ago on CDs borrowed from a library but I've not listened to the full set. They were rather remarkable at the time.

You're welcome, AM51! One of my real favourites they did was the Weber Horn Concertino, featuring the deliciously earthy playing of Anthony Halstead...it cheers me up whenever I listen to it.

[Thropplenoggin]

I ended up putting the Jos van Immerseel on the 'Santa' list, after giving it more of a considered listen. It seems to tick most of the boxes for what I'm after.

Let's see if I've been a good enough Thropplenoggin to merit it.

[MickyD]

I've just ordered Immerseel's new Debussy CD, I think it promises to be good.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Apparently there were stereo tapes of the VPO version which the geniuses at Decca "lost"......

I heard somewhere that the mono recording of Kleiber's VPO Eroica was the left channel of the stereo recording. Probably not true, but the recording does seem to favour the violins, with light bass.