Tristan, 1951, Sabata

[Tapiola]

Firstly, as a new member, I would like to say hello to all, and apologies for launching straight into discussions yesterday rather illmanneredly without introduction.
As a sometime lurker on the old Radio 3 boards I thought it was high time that I registered onto a forum.
My question is this: I have opportunity to purchase - very cheaply - a recording of Tristan by Victor de Sabata recorded in La Scala in 1951.
The Musicweb reviewer has described this performance as the most searing on record, though the sound is reputedly atrocious.
I have the Bohm Bayreuth Tristan and the Furtwangler, both of which I love. Is the Sabata worth acquiring? Is it THAT good? Is the sound THAT bad?
I'd be grateful for any views.
T

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Tapiola, although I can't assist you on your quest for information on the 1951 Sabata Tristan, please be assured that you are welcome here without introduction. We are all equal from day 1. :)

[Pianorak]

Welcome, Tapiola

There are MP3 tasters here: http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.p...nd-isolde-1951 Enjoy and judge for yourself.

[Chris Newman]

Welcome, Tapiola. You sound as if you are a good Sibelian:biggrin.

I have just listened to some of the clips of that Tristan kindly supplied by Pianorak. I love many old recordings as the voices are so often far superior to what we hear today. You say you believe the 1951 de Sabata sound is attrocious. I agree. I love bits of Flagstadt and Melchior, even though older, you can hear what they sing. One of my favourite La Bohemes is the old 1938 Gigli/ Albanese and the sound of the singers and even the orchestra sounds as if it was recently recorded. I can live with reasonable wear and tear but that Tristan is too difficult to hear.

Having said that it puzzles me why some recordings from the 30s are so much better than those from the 50s. I am sure that some of our recording engineer members can tell us why.

As I say, welcome,

Best wishes

Chris.

[Chris Newman]

Hi Tapiola,
I hope my reply above was not too dismissive of the de Sabata Tristan. It was purely on the grounds of attrocious sound: some of the singing is fabulous. This sequence of 1920s and 1930s Gigli recordings will prove, I hope, what I meant about that strange post- World War II dip in recording quality in the classical world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVI_G5bGTCM&playnext=1&list=PL32F0467213ABA0E8&index=7

bws
Chris.

[Tapiola]

Eine Alpensinfonie, Pianorak, Chris,

Many thanks for your kind words, and for the clips supplied.

The sound is indeed challenging on the Sabata Tristan. Sound issues generally do not prevent me from being able to listen behind or beyond the notes (when they can be heard) but this Tristan is pretty dire in this respect. However, I think I will take the plunge and buy it (it's only £10).

The Gigli/Boheme clip is gorgeous

I agree, Chris, that many 1920s and 1930s recordings do sound superior to some from the 50s. One comparison that springs to mind is Karl Muck's Parsifal recordings from 1927-8 versus Clemens Krauss' Ring from 1953. The former sounds so much more immediate and better balanced - recording-wise; the latter always disappoints me slightly. The singing on both, though, is fabulous.

[Ferretfancy]

I can only guess about the provenance of that Tristan, but I suspect that what you have been listening to is a copy several times down the line of a very poor original. Here's a small personal example. Way back in about 1959, when I was a very junior person in the BBC, the Third Programme broadcast a performance of Prokofiev's The Flaming Angel, I think from Covent Garden, opera enthusiasts please correct me. Anyway I was given the task of recording the transmission, just for office use and using old acetates.These were discs that had material recorded on on one side, and I was expected to use the scuffed blank side. Imagine a pile of 78s containing this long opera, and then imagine that recording possibly originating from an amateur recording off air. Finally, a company gets hold of the heap, copies them without any treatment, edits the 4 minute sides to remove the overlaps, and transfers them to CD.
All this could have happened to The Flaming Angel or the Sabata Tristan.

[Mandryka]

Eine Alpensinfonie, Pianorak, Chris,

Many thanks for your kind words, and for the clips supplied.

The sound is indeed challenging on the Sabata Tristan. Sound issues generally do not prevent me from being able to listen behind or beyond the notes (when they can be heard) but this Tristan is pretty dire in this respect. However, I think I will take the plunge and buy it (it's only £10).

The Gigli/Boheme clip is gorgeous

I agree, Chris, that many 1920s and 1930s recordings do sound superior to some from the 50s. One comparison that springs to mind is Karl Muck's Parsifal recordings from 1927-8 versus Clemens Krauss' Ring from 1953. The former sounds so much more immediate and better balanced - recording-wise; the latter always disappoints me slightly. The singing on both, though, is fabulous.

My benchmakr for poor sound quality is the Toscanini Meistersinger, from Salzburg 1937, as issued on the Wagnermania box set about ten years ago. I can tell that the performance is excellent, but the prospect of listening to it again is so forbidding that I rarely feel inclined to make the effort.

I'd also agree about the 20/30s v. early fifties. For another good example of what I mean, check out the Furtwangler La Scala Ring: scockingly bad, soundwise!

[umslopogaas]

The Rough Guide to Opera (which, I will always insist is not at all rough and very authoritative) actually includes this De Sabata version as one of seven recommendable versions of Tristan, on the strength of the singing, but with caveats about the sound qualities. I quote:

" ... one of the worst recordings of Tristan ever made, with sound which - even for 1951 - is lamentable. It is all the more tragic that the performance is arguably the greatest. ... De Sabata's overwhelming personality, concentration and single-minded conception of the score. ... Throughout Act 2 he pushes the drama to the point of collapse, reaching a frenzy of animation and emotion unique in the opera's history on record. ... Lorenz as Tristan ... deeply felt, matched throughout by his Isolde, the legendary Grob-Prandl ... a miraculous performance, but one that appears to have been recorded through a heavy sock."

I havent heard it. I remain very committed to the live Bohm version on DG. What a cast! Nilsson, Windgassen, Ludwig, Talvela, Wachter. And Nilsson is fearsome, when she demands Brangane extinguish the light to summon her lover at the start of Act 2, I really get a sense of someone possessed by delirium.

[Mandryka]

I think if you have the Bohm 1966 recording, Furtwanglers Philharmonia version and the studio efforts of both Karajan and Kleiber, you're probably sorted for Tristan on record.

[Tapiola]

Well, I threw caution to the wind and picked up the Sabata recording.

I have only listened to the Act 1 Prelude thus far and the sound is...pretty shocking. Far worse than any tape of a tape of a tape recording I used to make 30 odd years ago from very cheap Unipart cassettes on a tape recorder badly in need of having the heads cleaned with meths. Drop-outs all over the place, muffled sound, extraneous noises, the lot.

Mandryka has mentioned the compromised sound on the Furtwangler La Scala Ring. The sound on the Sabata (Archipel) discs is far, far worse.

The performance though, is gripping from the very first notes and the ear does acclimatise to the sound, though I susepct that mental preparation will be needed before tackling even an Act at a time.

I think it was the Musicweb reviewer who stated that this was a desert island disc but one only for the desert island.