Divided fiddles

[Hornspieler]

Thanks for some interesting posts explaining the history of the violin positions. I do remember a rehearsal at Maida Vale Studio where Sir Adrian became very cross because for some reason the violins were all on the left and everything had to be rearranged quickly.

Slightly off topic, I also have a vague memory of the beginning of the Sargent years where the violins of the BBCSO had to rotate seating positions at each 'prelim' rehearsal for the proms that year. I think it was for audition purposes but it wasn't popular with the musicians, naturally, in my view.

In 1956, I was engaged as an extra with the BBCSO to play in a televised performance of Mozart's "Serenade for four orchestras"

I was to play 2nd horn in "Orchestra D!" The conductor was Alfred Wallenstein.

The orchestra was divided into four parts and augmented where neccesary by extra wind players.
The principle was that Orchestra A plays a phrase - quite loud. Orchestra B then repeats that phrase - mezzo forte
Orchestra C plays it piano and Orchestra D plays it pianissimo.

But Orchestra D comprised all the back desks of the string sections, and when Wallenstein heard the result in rehearsal, he refused point blank to perform the piece and the programme had to be changed at a few days' notice.
So I sat at home and watched the programme on TV, having already received a fat television fee and extra rehearsals fees for doing so.

Salymap's post regarding the orchestra's resistance to Sargent's desk swapping attempts is now explained. Those old codgers, who'd been in the orchestra since London was a Roman camp called Londinium, did not wish to be found out!

HS

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But of course the placing of cellos and basses becomes critical too - Russian orchestras often do it with cellos centre-left, and doublebasses further left and deeper-set. I do enjoy the effect,

A-ha! Do you happen to know where the Violas are seated in this arrangement, Jayne? (If they're put on the other side of the platform from the 'celli, then the "stereophonic" effect of the Violin parts is also doubled.)

[salymap]

I knew two of those old codgers HS; a cellist and a viola player who had been in the orchestra since it was formed about 1930, I think.
They had some good stories of past events and worshipped Sir Adrian. They hated changes, don't we all? I think they kept their jobs until retirement but lost touch with them when I worked in publishing and couldn't get to rehearsals much. Happy days

[Petrushka]

Happy to oblige. The 'back desk' thing comes in the First Symphony, the first time being at figure 48 - the final return of the motto theme in the first movement. Firsts, seconds and violas (last desks only) creep in in unison as the theme builds up. They join the rest of the strings at 50. In the fourth movement, the very first thing you hear is the back desks playing tremolos, the angular theme and bits of the motto theme; that continues until the Allegro begins. The last desks of firsts, seconds and violas steal in again at 129, just before the broad, very beautiful version of the staccato theme. But the surprise is at 146, the final return of the motto. Almost the whole orchestra is pounding out syncopated thumps, fortissimo, as the theme emerges again of back desks of violins, violas and cellos. They are marked ff this time and are supported by oboes, cor anglais, horns and 3rd trumpet (the latter marked mf - please feel free to throw things at any conductor who lets the 3rd trumpet blast this out). This continues until 147, when the tune has been taken over by the whole orchestra.

Here it is [FF, this is the 1908 Novello score, long out of copyright]:



This is only partly a spatial effect, as the main thing is to have the theme steal in almost unnoticed, but the platform layout does play its part, especially when the motto theme begins to make itself known from all corners simultaneously. Shortly before 146 there is several bars of 'question-and-answer' between firsts and seconds that cries out for thew whole width of the platform.

Pabmusic: Very many thanks for this excellent and detailed confirmation of my half-remembered information. What a great education these boards are!

[Flosshilde]

I noticed at the BBCSSO concert (Tristan & Isolde) last Thursday that the violins were on both sides, the violas (I think) were right centre, cellos left centre & Basses on the left.

[Pabmusic]

Here's the pre-war BBC SO and Boult at the Queen's Hall in 1932. The picture quality is not great.

Notice how the cellos are set back slightly. I think that must be because of limited space on the flat but it does mean that nearest the conductor are (left to right) firsts, violas and seconds. Notice how, in the second section of P & C 1, Boult turns first to his right - the seconds, who have the rising theme (dum-didee dum-didee dum da daa), answered immediately by the firsts on his left. That happens twice. Also note that he's got only four percussionists (apart from timps, whom no-one should call a mere percussionist) - Elgar wrote for six! Where are the sleighbells?

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/bbc-symphony-orchestra

[Hornspieler]

What would be the normal seating position for a string quartet (or quintet)?

Is it not Violin leader, 2nd violin, cello, viola; with the viola facing the quartet's leader and 2nd violin and cello facing towards the audience?

HS

[amateur51]

Here's the pre-war BBC SO and Boult at the Queen's Hall in 1932. The picture quality is not great.

Notice how the cellos are set back slightly. I think that must be because of limited space on the flat but it does mean that nearest the conductor are (left to right) firsts, violas and seconds. Notice how, in the second section of P & C 1, Boult turns first to his right - the seconds, who have the rising theme (dum-didee dum-didee dum da daa), answered immediately by the firsts on his left. That happens twice. Also note that he's got only four percussionists (apart from timps, whom no-one should call a mere percussionist) - Elgar wrote for six! Where are the sleighbells?

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/bb...hony-orchestra

A fascinating piece of film, Pabs - many thanks

The first thing I noticed was the tremendous lick at which Boult took the piece - almost hectic. But then I noticed the almost flamboyant conducting style - arms in full use up at shouklder height & above plus the long stick. In later years Boult was reknowned for making full use of the long stick with his elbow closer to his body in what someone described as akin to a fly-fishing technique, I think. Wasn't there also an anecdote about Sir Adrian's listening to an orchestral radio broadcast with Lady Boult saying " this fellow's using too much elbow" or somesuch, indicating his preference for using the ball of the stick between fingers and thumb in a rotating motion. I remember seeing one of his sticks with many rubber bands around the ball to enhance this effect in arthritic hands, I assume.

[Pabmusic]

...The first thing I noticed was the tremendous lick at which Boult took the piece - almost hectic. But then I noticed the almost flamboyant conducting style - arms in full use up at shouklder height & above plus the long stick...I remember seeing one of his sticks with many rubber bands around the ball to enhance this effect in arthritic hands, I assume.

Yes, flamboyant is right - not a word that's ever been used about Boult very much, is it? The rubber bands have nothing to do with arthritis, though - that's what he apparently did to get a good grip on the 'bulb'-shaped handles he preferred. He wrote a little pamphlet on conducting (1940s?) and rubber bands get their mention in that!

[amateur51]

Yes, flamboyant is right - not a word that's ever been used about Boult very much, is it? The rubber bands have nothing to do with arthritis, though - that's what he apparently did to get a good grip on the 'bulb'-shaped handles he preferred. He wrote a little pamphlet on conducting (1940s?) and rubber bands get their mention in that!

Oh well done, Pabs, that's where I must have seen it (in a re-print of course ).

[salymap]

Yes, in later life Sir Adrian was known for lack of movement and conducting from the wrist with a very long baton. Some conductors prefer a shorter baton and that the stick is an extension of the arm. I've just found a proof copy of his book 'Thoughts on Conducting, published Phoenix House, 1963, which has probably already been mentioned. Print is quite a good size, must find time to read it

[Pabmusic]

Yes, in later life Sir Adrian was known for lack of movement and conducting from the wrist with a very long baton. Some conductors prefer a shorter baton and that the stick is an extention of the arm...

The idea, as I understand it, is that the primary movement is from the fingers, with hand and arm still. The long baton emphasises the finger movements (exercise = using only your fingers, make the point of the stick describe a circle). The next joint to enter the action is the wrist, then the elbow, then the shoulder. In that order. The left hand should work independently, coaxing individual players, and emphasising things. I understand Boult did a lot with his gaze, too.

[Bryn]

What would be the normal seating position for a string quartet (or quintet)?

Is it not Violin leader, 2nd violin, cello, viola; with the viola facing the quartet's leader and 2nd violin and cello facing towards the audience?

HS

Surely each player is assigned a different helicopter.

[amateur51]

The idea, as I understand it, is that the primary movement is from the fingers, with hand and arm still. The long baton emphasises the finger movements (exercise = using only your fingers, make the point of the stick describe a circle). The next joint to enter the action is the wrist, then the elbow, then the shoulder. In that order. The left hand should work independently, coaxing individual players, and emphasising things. I understand Boult did a lot with his gaze, too.

That's what you see in many later films of Sir Adrian at work, Pabs but certainly not in the relatively early BBCSO Pathé clip that you linked to earlier- he was positively ... Sargentian

[salymap]

That's what you see in many later films of Sir Adrian at work, Pabs but certainly not in the relatively early BBCSO Pathé clip that you linked to earlier- he was positively ... Sargentian

I don't think that remark would please either of them Ams