Guilty secrets - the bits you miss out

[cloughie]

I've sung in both of those. I have to admit, in spite of what I said earlier, that sometimes in Beethoven 9 I have rather wished that some of the earlier movements would hurry up or disappear. It's a long time to sit perfectly still without doing anything

Mary, the Daphnis experience must have been fantastic!

[jayne lee wilson]

It's not over-reverent to suggest that Beethoven in his 9th, or Mahler in his 6th, knew better than us how his symphony should go. If you feel compelled to leave a movement out (scherzo of M6, finale of LvB 9) each time you play the piece, fine - but recognise it for the self-indulgence that it is (Mahler has inadvertently left you with some choices within the 6th...). Beethoven's choral finale is saying something about the adagio, about the symphony (his and others), and humanity in general. You have to try to take in the whole message at least some of the time. If you can't, it's your problem, not Beethoven's. This subjective, large-scale editing is quite distinct from playing excerpts (a scherzo, an adagio etc.) either for pleasure, learning or comparison.

Someone suggested to me recently that his disregard of the LvB 9th's finale was similar to my own moratorium on the complete Sacre du Printemps, or Dvorak 9 - a moment's reflection should be enough for anyone to see the falsity of the comparison.

Conversely, I would love to inhabit a world where a contemporary composer could give us an alternative finale for Beethoven's 9th, perhaps based on LvB's own sketches or deletions (those who dislike the choral finale seem rather short on suggestions...) if only to emphasise the unpredictable inevitability of LvB's choices; or where the "4-movement version" (any of them...) of Bruckner's 9th was taken up by all who played it, in a mood of high excitement and discovery, for a few years... but reverence, selfishness and laziness tends to get in the way of a living classical culture. As a 3-movement work, B9 seems to tell a fulfilling story of struggle and resignation; but this clearly wasn't true for Bruckner, and isn't the whole story. (Tangentially - How many pianists give us their own ornaments or cadenzas in a Mozart concerto? What's the problem?)

Again, take Mahler 10 - if you don't know the Cooke performing version, you may be trapped in Bernstein's (very eloquently expressed) view of Mahler as an Asrael of the 20th C., failing to hear how Mahler himself progressed beyond his fears to a renewed love of life, even as he left it!
What a shame for you, and for Mahler - I get tearful just thinking of what it took him, to get to that - that affirmation at the end of No.10...

"To live for you, to die for you, Almschi"
...instead of ..."morendo".

[Dave2002]

Someone suggested to me recently that his disregard of the LvB 9th's finale was similar to my own moratorium on the complete Sacre du Printemps, or Dvorak 9 - a moment's reflection should be enough for anyone to see the falsity of the comparison.

Que? I come from Barcelona!

[martin_opera]

For opera:

Act 1 Scene 1 of Il Trovatore, Lucia, Nabucco and I Puritani. Anything after Tu che di gel sei cinta in Turandot and the remainder of Act 2 of Manon Lescaut after In Quelle Trine Morbide. But the worst habit was starting Le Nozze Di Figaro at Act 2 for many years. Cured of that now. Oh and I have no idea how Il Barbiere di Siviglia finishes - never get that far.

[pastoralguy]

For some odd reason I find myself losing interest in Walton 1 after the first 2 movts. Likewise, Nielson 3 fails to hold my attention after the wonderful 1st movt.

My loss no doubt.

[mathias broucek]

If you feel compelled to leave a movement out (scherzo of M6, finale of LvB 9) each time you play the piece, fine - but recognise it for the self-indulgence that it is ...... This subjective, large-scale editing is quite distinct from playing excerpts (a scherzo, an adagio etc.) either for pleasure, learning or comparison.

Well-put. I'm well aware of how self-indulgent it is to leave a movement out. In truth, I'm more likely to skate over it (e.g. listen to it while washing-up) than skip it altogether. It's perhaps a function of CDs being cheap and time being limited and in many ways it would be better to have fewer recordings and cherish them more. Another example of the modern risk of superficiality, I suppose. I once read a quote about Abraham Lincoln (I think) that he had quite a small library of books but that he read them very deeply.

Am completely with you on Mahler 10!

[salymap]

It would never occur to me to play bits of a symphony - all or nothing. I avoid one or two things that are overplayed, including the Beetn 9 and some of the Breakfast favourites. I have, however, given up on Bruckner. I have bad tinnitus and last night, following someone's advice settled down to Symphony 4. It came to me as a series of hammer blows to my head and little else.
The fact that my recording was made in 1936 by Karl Bohm and the Staatskapelle, Dresden, may have something to do with it. Remastered but not much improvement in the scratchy sound.

[Thropplenoggin]

Again, take Mahler 10 - if you don't know the Cooke performing version, you may be trapped in Bernstein's (very eloquently expressed) view of Mahler as an Asrael of the 20th C., failing to hear how Mahler himself progressed beyond his fears to a renewed love of life, even as he left it!
What a shame for you, and for Mahler - I get tearful just thinking of what it took him, to get to that - that affirmation at the end of No.10...

"To live for you, to die for you, Almschi"
...instead of ..."morendo".

Jayne, you suggest we should respect the composer's wishes in LvB's 9th - that he had his reasons for the finale (I agree), but then sing the praises of Mahler's 10th symphony. I wonder how happy Mahler would have been with this cobbled together 10th Symphony - with the very idea of someone else tinkering with his creation! It isn't his piece - it's someone else's supposition of what his piece may have ended up like. Conductors like Bernstein had enough respect for Mahler to only conduct the one finished movement.

Surely the Cooke(d) version risks leaving a far more skewed vision of how Mahler ended his creative life than the one movement that is solely a product of the composer's hand.

[cloughie]

Someone suggested to me recently that his disregard of the LvB 9th's finale was similar to my own moratorium on the complete Sacre du Printemps, or Dvorak 9 - a moment's reflection should be enough for anyone to see the falsity of the comparison.

Jayne - I have reflected and cogitated - perhaps I'm not very bright - and no I don't see the falsity of the comparison. In musical terms the Choral without the choral movement may be incomplete, but for me the movement coming bursting in whilst I'm still taking in the third movement is a bit like the inappropriate CD couplings where an overture is tagged on to the end of a Symphony eg Leonara 3 following the Eroica. Why don't they precede it? But let's agree to differ - musical taste and appreciation can be shared and what you write on these boards is usually interesting - but in the final analysis we are guided by our ears and minds.

[mathias broucek]

For some odd reason I find myself losing interest in Walton 1 after the first 2 movts. ... My loss no doubt.

Interesting. It was first performed with just the first 3 movements and various astute folk have commented on differences between i-iii and iv. IIRC someone suggested that, "the problem was that Willy changed girlfriends between movements". FWIW I listen to the whole thing but I agree that i (particularly) and ii are the highlights.

[mathias broucek]

It would never occur to me to play bits of a symphony - all or nothing.

In theory I agree. In practice, I love the slow movement of Bruckner 8 but don't always have 80 spare minutes (100+ for Celi/Munich) so I sometimes just listen to the Adagio alone.

[Serial_Apologist]

It's not over-reverent to suggest that Beethoven in his 9th, or Mahler in his 6th, knew better than us how his symphony should go. If you feel compelled to leave a movement out (scherzo of M6, finale of LvB 9) each time you play the piece, fine - but recognise it for the self-indulgence that it is (Mahler has inadvertently left you with some choices within the 6th...). Beethoven's choral finale is saying something about the adagio, about the symphony (his and others), and humanity in general. You have to try to take in the whole message at least some of the time. If you can't, it's your problem, not Beethoven's. This subjective, large-scale editing is quite distinct from playing excerpts (a scherzo, an adagio etc.) either for pleasure, learning or comparison.

Someone suggested to me recently that his disregard of the LvB 9th's finale was similar to my own moratorium on the complete Sacre du Printemps, or Dvorak 9 - a moment's reflection should be enough for anyone to see the falsity of the comparison.

Conversely, I would love to inhabit a world where a contemporary composer could give us an alternative finale for Beethoven's 9th, perhaps based on LvB's own sketches or deletions (those who dislike the choral finale seem rather short on suggestions...) if only to emphasise the unpredictable inevitability of LvB's choices; or where the "4-movement version" (any of them...) of Bruckner's 9th was taken up by all who played it, in a mood of high excitement and discovery, for a few years... but reverence, selfishness and laziness tends to get in the way of a living classical culture. As a 3-movement work, B9 seems to tell a fulfilling story of struggle and resignation; but this clearly wasn't true for Bruckner, and isn't the whole story. (Tangentially - How many pianists give us their own ornaments or cadenzas in a Mozart concerto? What's the problem?)

Again, take Mahler 10 - if you don't know the Cooke performing version, you may be trapped in Bernstein's (very eloquently expressed) view of Mahler as an Asrael of the 20th C., failing to hear how Mahler himself progressed beyond his fears to a renewed love of life, even as he left it!
What a shame for you, and for Mahler - I get tearful just thinking of what it took him, to get to that - that affirmation at the end of No.10...

"To live for you, to die for you, Almschi"
...instead of ..."morendo".

Sheepishly, I have to agree with what you say here, Jayne.

If there is any mitigation to what I said above about Turangalila, from what I know, Messiaen did give his OK to its movements being performed separately.

[Serial_Apologist]

In theory I agree. In practice, I love the slow movement of Bruckner 8 but don't always have 80 spare minutes (100+ for Celi/Munich) so I sometimes just listen to the Adagio alone.

I think Visconti is very much to be blamed for isolating the Adagietto from Mahler 5 for his use of it in "Death in Venice". I suppose the same could be said of the use of Rach PC 2 in "Brief Encounter"

[Ferretfancy]

How about Elgar's Sea Pictures ? I can't be bothered with any of it except Where Corals Lie, and has anybody ever got though the whole of Starlight Express ?

[salymap]

How about Elgar's Sea Pictures ? I can't be bothered with any of it except Where Corals Lie, and has anybody ever got though the whole of Starlight Express ?

Well Ferret,songs seem different from Symphonies to me. I agree about Sea Pictures although I rather like the last song too. Don't know Starlight Express.