Beethoven's First Two Symphonies

[jayne lee wilson]

Please don't try to tell me what I can and can't have,Jayne. Maybe you can't - I can, let's just agree to differ. After all if you can give up the Rite of Spring for ten years I can give up Beet 9 4!

It's not me telling you that, it's Beethoven! I would always say it with a smile, but I doubt LvB would...
Cheers with first brandy/mulled bordeaux of the autumn

Sorry everyone, OT (and OTT...)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I wouldn't be bothered if I never heard B1 ever again. I couldn't believe how dull and boring it was, the first time I heard it. I V I V I IV I V and hardly any development ad nauseam. Good grief.

That must've been a peculiar performance, Simon! The actual harmonies are:

V7 of IV - IV; V7 - vi; V7 of V - V; ii7b - V - V7d - Ib (the first time we hear the Tonic triad of the work!) - Vb V - I (the irst time we hear the Tonic triad in root position) - ii7b - Ic - V - dim7 - vi - IV (the first time we hear the subdominant) - Ic - V V7 - I

.. and that's just the Introduction! The First Group consists of:

I (v) x4; I - V7 of ii - ii (v of ii) x4; ii - iv[add6] (or is it ii half-diminished?) - V7b - V7c - V7d - V7 - I - IV - V - I

... and then we're in the Transition. Which is highly unusual in that it doesn't follow tradition and move away from the home key; rather it simply ends on an Imperfect Cadence before the Second Group commences in the Dominant. Incompetence in the 29-year-old composer? Hardly: many of the movements of the preceeding 20 opera demonstrate mastery of Sonata principles. Rather, Beethoven teases his audience here and in the Recapitulation (where, breaking traditional proceedures, he does move away from the Tonic - in order to completely ignore this elaborate modulation and continues in C major as if nothing has happened! The world of the Symphony is being turned on its head - as if Beethoven is making a rude gesture at his more orthodox and traditionally-minded contemporaries. And do you know of a Symphony written before this that so dramatically melds the Development section into the Recapitulation? The same seismic gesture that we hear in the Fifth Symphony is already here; but here it is more playful and (as I said earlier) impudent.

Oh: and is there a work before this that slithers to the key of the flattened seventh (V7 of vii - vii) in the Exposition as does this work (bars 77 - 87)? or a Development that starts (in both senses of the word!) with a first-inversion Major chord of the "Relative minor" - tripping up any listener who might be expecting an interrupted cadence? And the mastery of the of the last 22 bars: nothing but C major to balance out the lack of C major in the 12 bar Introduction (the faster Tempo meaning that the two passages last approximately the same amount of time)!

This is the work of a genius; not quite yet of the first order, but unquestionable genius nonetheless ... and I haven't even started on the Second Movement, yet!

(By the way, the Development is between bars 110-177 and passes through A, D and G majors, c minor, f minor, Bb major, Eb, F, G, Amajors and settles on E major (entirely the "wrong" key for the end of a Development section - it "should" be G!) - the sleight-of-hand with which Beethoven gets the Music back to the Tonic is managed with the sort of bravura that shows what he learnt from Haydn.)

(Oh, and your harmonic description of the opening actually fits the opening of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony:

I (for two bars); V7c - I; V7b ; V (for two bars); Ib - Vb; I ; I - IV - V7 - I - IV - V7 - I - V7 - I - V7 - I - then unison C - G - C - G - C - E - I - V - I - V - I V I V I V I V V unison G

.. is this the work you were thinking of. Because, if it is, I wouldn't let the harmonic simplicity - banality, even - deceive you, much as such a deception would delight Mozart. What he's setting up is (contd pg 76)

[BBMmk2]

I love these first two symphonies by Beethoven. They are a precursor as to what was to follow! I used to love hearing Klemperer conducting these and Karajan to I have Karajan's 1962 cycle, which I think is his best but I also have Harnoncourts complete box of lvb's comPlete and apart from the VC I find 1 and 2 very good despite what another member mentioned earlier!

[Tony Halstead]

Absolutely wonderful!

That must've been a peculiar performance, Simon! The actual harmonies are:

V7 of IV - IV; V7 - vi; V7 of V - V; ii7b - V - V7d - Ib (the first time we hear the Tonic triad of the work!) - Vb V - I (the irst time we hear the Tonic triad in root position) - ii7b - Ic - V - dim7 - vi - IV (the first time we hear the subdominant) - Ic - V V7 - I

.. and that's just the Introduction! The First Group consists of:

I (v) x4; I - V7 of ii - ii (v of ii) x4; ii - iv[add6] (or is it ii half-diminished?) - V7b - V7c - V7d - V7 - I - IV - V - I

... and then we're in the Transition. Which is highly unusual in that it doesn't follow tradition and move away from the home key; rather it simply ends on an Imperfect Cadence before the Second Group commences in the Dominant. Incompetence in the 29-year-old composer? Hardly: many of the movements of the preceeding 20 opera demonstrate mastery of Sonata principles. Rather, Beethoven teases his audience here and in the Recapitulation (where, breaking traditional proceedures, he does move away from the Tonic - in order to completely ignore this elaborate modulation and continues in C major as if nothing has happened! The world of the Symphony is being turned on its head - as if Beethoven is making a rude gesture at his more orthodox and traditionally-minded contemporaries. And do you know of a Symphony written before this that so dramatically melds the Development section into the Recapitulation? The same seismic gesture that we hear in the Fifth Symphony is already here; but here it is more playful and (as I said earlier) impudent.

Oh: and is there a work before this that slithers to the key of the flattened seventh (V7 of vii - vii) in the Exposition as does this work (bars 77 - 87)? or a Development that starts (in both senses of the word!) with a first-inversion Major chord of the "Relative minor" - tripping up any listener who might be expecting an interrupted cadence? And the mastery of the of the last 22 bars: nothing but C major to balance out the lack of C major in the 12 bar Introduction (the faster Tempo meaning that the two passages last approximately the same amount of time)!

This is the work of a genius; not quite yet of the first order, but unquestionable genius nonetheless ... and I haven't even started on the Second Movement, yet!

(By the way, the Development is between bars 110-177 and passes through A, D and G majors, c minor, f minor, Bb major, Eb, F, G, Amajors and settles on E major (entirely the "wrong" key for the end of a Development section - it "should" be G!) - the sleight-of-hand with which Beethoven gets the Music back to the Tonic is managed with the sort of bravura that shows what he learnt from Haydn.)

(Oh, and your harmonic description of the opening actually fits the opening of Mozart's Jupiter Symphony:

I (for two bars); V7c - I; V7b ; V (for two bars); Ib - Vb; I ; I - IV - V7 - I - IV - V7 - I - V7 - I - V7 - I - then unison C - G - C - G - C - E - I - V - I - V - I V I V I V I V V unison G

.. is this the work you were thinking of. Because, if it is, I wouldn't let the harmonic simplicity - banality, even - deceive you, much as such a deception would delight Mozart. What he's setting up is (contd pg 76)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Cheers, waldhorn!

[Roehre]

That must've been a peculiar performance, Simon! The actual harmonies are:

V7 of IV - IV; V7 - vi; V7 of V - V; ii7b - V - V7d - Ib (the first time we hear the Tonic triad of the work!) - Vb V - I (the irst time we hear the Tonic triad in root position) - ii7b - Ic - V - dim7 - vi - IV (the first time we hear the subdominant) - Ic - V V7 - I

.. and that's just the Introduction! The First Group consists of:

I (v) x4; I - V7 of ii - ii (v of ii) x4; ii - iv[add6] (or is it ii half-diminished?) - V7b - V7c - V7d - V7 - I - IV - V - I

... and then we're in the Transition. Which is highly unusual in that it doesn't follow tradition and move away from the home key; rather it simply ends on an Imperfect Cadence before the Second Group commences in the Dominant. Incompetence in the 29-year-old composer? Hardly: many of the movements of the preceeding 20 opera demonstrate mastery of Sonata principles. Rather, Beethoven teases his audience here and in the Recapitulation (where, breaking traditional proceedures, he does move away from the Tonic - in order to completely ignore this elaborate modulation and continues in C major as if nothing has happened! The world of the Symphony is being turned on its head - as if Beethoven is making a rude gesture at his more orthodox and traditionally-minded contemporaries. And do you know of a Symphony written before this that so dramatically melds the Development section into the Recapitulation? The same seismic gesture that we hear in the Fifth Symphony is already here; but here it is more playful and (as I said earlier) impudent.

Beethoven sketched a Symphony in C -and even started writing out the full score- approximately four years before completing the Symphony in C opus 21. Most likely this sketched work wasn't completed because Beethoven found himself unable to compose a suitable finale at that time. However, many of the ideas of this symphony re-appeared in other works. Thus the original opening became the best part of opus 21's finale.
The surviving sketches for opus 21 show that B now planned a C-major the other way around: not starting with the opening mvt, but with the finale in order not to encounter similar problems as earlier was the case.

It shows something very interesting as well: like we know from the sketches of e.g. the late quartets, especially opus 131, he set out the harmonies of what he wanted to compose even before writing one single note of the movement. The dominat-seventh with which opus 21 opens, was envisaged from the very moment he started seriously composing the 1st mvt - and was IMO meant to be the counterpart of the scales with which the finale of opus 21 begins (after which the ideas of the sketched symphony's opening mvt appear). "Sonata form" (the term dates from the mid-1830 iirc, invented by an academic who thought that the classical composers by definition worked according to a kind of framework) was hardly something Beethoven needed to be taught - and the results were shocking. Don't forget the very opening chord of the symphony was -by its harmonies as well as by the instrumentation- literally unheard. It really shocked the public - and the critics btw.

Oh: and is there a work before this that slithers to the key of the flattened seventh (V7 of vii - vii) in the Exposition as does this work (bars 77 - 87)? or a Development that starts (in both senses of the word!) with a first-inversion Major chord of the "Relative minor" - tripping up any listener who might be expecting an interrupted cadence? And the mastery of the of the last 22 bars: nothing but C major to balance out the lack of C major in the 12 bar Introduction (the faster Tempo meaning that the two passages last approximately the same amount of time)!

The type of "jokes" at the expense of what "conaisseurs" expected at such a moment - typical cool Beethovenian humour IMO

This is the work of a genius; not quite yet of the first order, but unquestionable genius nonetheless ... and I haven't even started on the Second Movement, yet!

The 2nd mvt is another example of Beethoven's structural thinking: a menuetto developed with a fugato into a slow movement. Whether it is a completely succesful movement is open for a discussion, but nevertheless.

(By the way, the Development is between bars 110-177 and passes through A, D and G majors, c minor, f minor, Bb major, Eb, F, G, Amajors and settles on E major (entirely the "wrong" key for the end of a Development section - it "should" be G!) - the sleight-of-hand with which Beethoven gets the Music back to the Tonic is managed with the sort of bravura that shows what he learnt from Haydn.)

Something similar as we see happening in his 2nd piano concerto too, btw, a work shaped into its definite form at approximately the same time as the aborted symphony in C was begun.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Brilliant, Roehre!

You're quite right about "Sonata Form" (good old Marx! ) - I should have written something on the lines of "the structural procedures familiar in the late 18th Century which were referred to as 'Sonata Form' in the 19th and more generally as 'the Sonata principle' in the 20th", but my post was quite long enough already!

[Roehre]

You're quite right about "Sonata Form" (good old Marx! ) - I should have written something on the lines of "the structural procedures familiar in the late 18th Century which were referred to as 'Sonata Form' in the 19th and more generally as 'the Sonata principle' in the 20th", but my post was quite long enough already!

[rauschwerk]

I wouldn't be bothered if I never heard B1 ever again. I couldn't believe how dull and boring it was, the first time I heard it. I V I V I IV I V and hardly any development ad nauseam. Good grief.

That the genius who wrote the Eroica, the 5th and the Emperor PC, to name but a few of the greatest works ever penned, could start off with such a crass symphony is one of the mysteries - and miracles - of music.

That's putting it more strongly than I would, Simon, but I take your point. Compared with some of his previous works (eg the C minor piano trio, the piano sonatas Opp 10/3 and 13) the first symphony is cautious, to say the least. Adventure would come with the next symphony which is another matter altogether.

[Roehre]

That's putting it more strongly than I would, Simon, but I take your point. Compared with some of his previous works (eg the C minor piano trio, the piano sonatas Opp 10/3 and 13) the first symphony is cautious, to say the least. Adventure would come with the next symphony which is another matter altogether.

Beethoven had the habit of testing new grounds in smaller forms, especially -but not exclusively (opus 18!)- for piano. His symphonies are all (with exception of 3, but including the Ninth) more conservative/less audacious than works surrounding them.

[rauschwerk]

Beethoven had the habit of testing new grounds in smaller forms, especially -but not exclusively (opus 18!)- for piano. His symphonies are all (with exception of 3, but including the Ninth) more conservative/less audacious than works surrounding them.

Well said, Roehre. I had rather listen to any of Haydn's symphonic masterpieces (isn't No. 102 a great piece?) than Beethoven 1 any day.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Compared with some of his previous works (eg the C minor piano trio, the piano sonatas Opp 10/3 and 13) the first symphony is cautious,

Allowing the "compared with", this is a fair point.

to say the least.

This isn't!

Adventure would come with the next symphony which is another matter altogether.

And this just isn't true: the "adventure" of the First Symphony I'd hoped I'd at least suggested in my earlier tome - every phrase contains something new, something different, something subverting, either in matters of structural, melodic, harmonic, tonal and/or instrumental expectations. And then there's the dynamic and temporal innovations. The sublime astonishments of the later symphonies shouldn't detract from what an achievement this First Symphony is.

I get ever-so miffed when it's so cavalierly dismissed in this fashion. And you wouldn't like me when I'm miffed!

[rauschwerk]

... and then we're in the Transition. Which is highly unusual in that it doesn't follow tradition and move away from the home key; rather it simply ends on an Imperfect Cadence before the Second Group commences in the Dominant.

It's not unusual at all. Very many 18th century sonata writers, including Mozart, did this very thing.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

great stuff chaps and many thanks .... not just a three chord trick huh ....

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It's not unusual at all. Very many 18th century sonata writers, including Mozart, did this very thing.

Also "Mozartian" is the opening perfect cadence on the Subdominant (K488, K332) - but what Beethoven does to make this his own is to make it such an abrupt cadence and then follow with an interrupted cadence and then another "wrong" perfect cadence. Avoiding the Tonic for so long is "highly unusual"; the "Dissonance" Quartet and the Prelude to The Creation are deliberately more "radical": Beethoven's teasing here is - that word again - impudent.

Similarly, do any of the "very many 18th Century" examples then go on to make such a song & dance in the retransition in the Recap? The chromatic shifts of key here, rather than where they "should" be, is, I think, unique? The world is turned upside-down: it's as aware of the implications of the French Revolution as is the Eroica (but there Beethoven's Tonal imagination takes him further: another quasi-opening with an immediate "modulation" to the subdominant - EXCEPT that the "proper" Db is replaced by a C#. An "enharmonic" change after which Music was never the same again).