Beethoven's First Two Symphonies

[Thropplenoggin]

I am afraid we disagree here. And as Mengelberg (and Verdi for that matter) thought it could be doen, who am I....

I've just finished JW "organic synthesis" Sullivan's Beethoven: His Spiritual Development, in which he also disses the ending of the Ninth as a failure:

an inadequate culmination of the spiritual process portrayed in the first three movements. It is usual to attribute this inadequacy to the employment of the human voice. It is doubtful, however, whether this is the real reason. It is rather that we feel that the spirit which has climbed up the heights of those first three movements should now, like Moses, on Sinai, be granted a vision of God Himself. To turn back from the serene, unearthly heights of the great Adagio to the warm human world of humanitarian ideals and optimistic rejoicings, is to disappoint our expectation of, and craving for, some ultimate sublimity.

And with that, the book winged its way across the room.

I can think of nothing more appropriate, more Beethovian, than this grounded gesture, which does touch the sublime - that opening dissonant tutti, those choral tutti, the range of singing - hushed and Palestrinian, brash and daring...Sullivan asks for the impossible here. Beethoven remains human and godlike.

In terms of musical evolution, there is also an inevitability about the meeting of symphony and choral music in Beethoven's late period, dare I say, a most "organic synthesis", to borrow Sullivan's oft-used phrase. An ingenious and bold decision, first tentatively broached in the Choral Fantasia and now given wings in his final symphonic gesture. Without this next leap, no Mahler 2, 3 and 4.

[cloughie]

Oh God not again...

Think I'll start a Society for the Protection of Beethoven's 9th...
...and please don't say, oh, it's only the finale... you can't have the 9th without it. Sorry.

Please don't try to tell me what I can and can't have,Jayne. Maybe you can't - I can, let's just agree to differ. After all if you can give up the Rite of Spring for ten years I can give up Beet 9 4!

[Roehre]

...I can think of nothing more appropriate, more Beethovian, than this grounded gesture, which remains utterly sublime - that opening dissonant tutti, those choral tutti, the range of singing - hushed and Palestrinian, brash and daring...Sullivan asks for the impossible here. Beethoven remains true to humanity....
.

An opinion which is not necessarily shared by its very own composer, as B considered replacing the choral finale by an instrumental one.

In terms of musical evolution, there is also an inevitability about the meeting of symphony and choral music in Beethoven's late period, dare I say, a most "organic synthesis", to borrow Sullivan's oft-used phrase. An ingenious and bold decision, first tentatively broached in the Choral Fantasia and now given wings in his final symphonic gesture. Without this next leap, no Mahler 2, 3 and 4.

I am not so sure about that. Beethoven is not the first to do this (though admittedly the first to do this on this scale - no discussion about that) and I am very doubtful whether Berlioz, Mendelssohn or Liszt wouldn't have come with their respective symphonies with choral elements anyway.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

An opinion which is not necessarily shared by its very own composer, as B considered replacing the choral finale by an instrumental one.

Well, he "considered" this, but didn't actually do it! And what were his motives for such a "consideration"? Dissatisfaction with the finale as it stands? Or (like the "replacement" of the Grosse Fuge with the alla Tedesca as finale of Op 133) practical/commercial reasons? (And does the Bb "replacement finale" improve on the original?)

I am not so sure about that. Beethoven is not the first to do this (though admittedly the first to do this on this scale - no discussion about that) and I am very doubtful whether Berlioz, Mendelssohn or Liszt wouldn't have come with their respective symphonies with choral elements anyway.

I'm sure you're right about Berlioz and Liszt (not so sure about Mendelssohn) - but I don't follow what the point of this speculation is, Roehre? It "sounds" as if you're using your dislike of the Ninth finale to convince yourself that it never happened, or, at least, was insignificant?

[PJPJ]

Here it is, TroppleN

http://www.mdt.co.uk/beethoven-symphonies-and-overtures-philharmonia-orchestra-otto-klemperer-emi-6cds.html

newly reissued.

[Thropplenoggin]

Here it is, TroppleN

http://www.mdt.co.uk/beethoven-symphonies-and-overtures-philharmonia-orchestra-otto-klemperer-emi-6cds.html

newly reissued.

Brilliant - thanks PJPJ. To quote amateur51, that's going straight on my Santa list!

*edit* Furthermore, even if I end of buying this me sen, thanks to this:

This set not only includes the symphonies (with both versions of Nos. 3 and 5 and all three of No. 7) but also nine of the Overtures (with duplicate versions) and extracts from the Incidental music to Egmont and the ballet The Creatures of Prometheus.

you've saved me a fortune.

I was all set to start investing piecemeal in the couplings.

[mathias broucek]

Brilliant - thanks PJPJ. To quote amateur51, that's going straight on my Santa list!

Or there's this on 10 CDs. Not sure what the extras are. Could be more symphonies (3, 5, 7 mono and/or Bav RSO) or perhaps concertos with Barenboim.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Symphonies-Overtures-Klemperer-Legacy/dp/B008YKRRI6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1347619836&sr=8-4

[Thropplenoggin]

Or there's this on 10 CDs. Not sure what the extras are. Could be more symphonies (3, 5, 7 mono and/or Bav RSO) or perhaps concertos with Barenboim.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Sy...7619836&sr=8-4

I think they're the same thing, mathias, as the release date and title are the same.

[cloughie]

Or there's this on 10 CDs. Not sure what the extras are. Could be more symphonies (3, 5, 7 mono and/or Bav RSO) or perhaps concertos with Barenboim.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beethoven-Sy...7619836&sr=8-4

I think it's the same thing - MDT's 6 is actually 10 and a better price!

[Roehre]

Well, he "considered" this, but didn't actually do it! And what were his motives for such a "consideration"? Dissatisfaction with the finale as it stands? Or (like the "replacement" of the Grosse Fuge with the alla Tedesca as finale of Op 133) practical/commercial reasons? (And does the Bb "replacement finale" improve on the original?)

The remark was made late in 1826, and B didn't live either to actually replace the finale or accept the 9th as it stands.

I'm sure you're right about Berlioz and Liszt (not so sure about Mendelssohn) - but I don't follow what the point of this speculation is, Roehre? It "sounds" as if you're using your dislike of the Ninth finale to convince yourself that it never happened, or, at least, was insignificant?

Ofcourse Beethoven 9 is an extremely important event. But had Beethoven not composed it, or not written a vocal finale, someone would have done so anyway, as it is IMO an inevitabilty that it would happen.

[Dave2002]

I think it's the same thing - MDT's 6 is actually 10 and a better price!

Slightly curious with two versions each of 3 and 5 and three versions of number 7.

Klemperer did more recordings than these, but not all I believe for EMI. Does anyone here know much about the different versions likely to be in this new box? At MDT's price it looks interesting. I do have another box which has the piano concertos with Barenboim, and I think the later stereo recordings of the symphonies. Are there some EMI/HMV/Columbia versions likely to be missing from the new box? I'm suspicious, because when I was really rather young I had a friend whose father had Beethoven 9 on a Columbia disc/set - and I thought that was also by Klemperer (Schwartzkopf as soloist?), but in mono only. Maybe I was getting confused with 78s, though I thought not.

[hafod]

Slightly curious with two versions each of 3 and 5 and three versions of number 7.

Klemperer did more recordings than these, but not all I believe for EMI. Does anyone here know much about the different versions likely to be in this new box? At MDT's price it looks interesting.

It is even more 'interesting' at Sainsbury's at £16.99 The Bruckner box can also be had for £12.99 but no sign of the Romantic Symphonies and Overtures box tho'.

https://www.sainsburysentertainment.co.uk/en/Music/CD/search.html?section=music/cd&t=Klemperer&sort=release&reverse=true

[Dave2002]

Wow hafod! Not sure you're saving us any money though - probably end up buying/spending more!

[Simon]

I wouldn't be bothered if I never heard B1 ever again. I couldn't believe how dull and boring it was, the first time I heard it. I V I V I IV I V and hardly any development ad nauseam. Good grief.

That the genius who wrote the Eroica, the 5th and the Emperor PC, to name but a few of the greatest works ever penned, could start off with such a crass symphony is one of the mysteries - and miracles - of music.

[cloughie]

Slightly curious with two versions each of 3 and 5 and three versions of number 7.Klemperer did more recordings than these, but not all I believe for EMI. Does anyone here know much about the different versions likely to be in this new box? At MDT's price it looks interesting. I do have another box which has the piano concertos with Barenboim, and I think the later stereo recordings of the symphonies. Are there some EMI/HMV/Columbia versions likely to be missing from the new box? I'm suspicious, because when I was really rather young I had a friend whose father had Beethoven 9 on a Columbia disc/set - and I thought that was also by Klemperer (Schwartzkopf as soloist?), but in mono only. Maybe I was getting confused with 78s, though I thought not.

Not really Dave he did a mono 3 5 & 7 before the stereo set then he did another 7th after the set. Nice to have a bit of completeness in CD sets.