Beethoven's First Two Symphonies

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  • Thropplenoggin
    • Feb 2025

    Beethoven's First Two Symphonies

    I was watching this delightfully quaint and rather moving old documentary on Beethoven here. Be warned - this link is a portal down which an hour of your life will merrily sink, as you wonder at how the music is allowed to speak for itself; smile at the charming old chaps pretending to be caught in media res conversationally; nod approvingly at the marriage of image and sound, and chuckle at the image quality; cringe as Schindler is taken at his word, etc.

    Anyway, it provides a wonderful overview of that immense human life and the music produced therein, as well as, perhaps, some new tidbits of info (I didn't know about that funeral oration, for example). I also came across Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante for the first time, and am now listening to this lovely modern rendition:

    It got me thinking about Beethoven's first two symphonies, which I've returned to again and again this year. I don't find them dull at all but really revelatory, where the bud of all that was to blossom later is quite apparent at times. Joyful, powerful music and glimpses of that monumentality and cosmic element that would follow.

    I only have two versions: Harnoncourt, which I have grown to dislike and never put on, especially since acquiring Franz Konwitschny's Beethoven cycle with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. I'm also a big fan of Furtwangler, though don't have him in Beethoven 1 or 2.

    Disappointingly, this hasn't been covered in BAL - but, then, I can't see an Eroica recommendation, either. (Harumph!)

    I tend to favour that golden era of Fifties and Sixties Beethoven from what little I've heard online and might invest in another cycle, or just the first two symphonies. Any recommendations for something monumental, transcendent, cosmic? Furious, yes, but not Gardiner fast, please. For example, I've heard Jochum called "Furtwängler-esque". If all three Jochum's cycles became available again, which has these qualities?

    I look forward to reading your suggestions.
    Last edited by Guest; 13-09-12, 12:42.
  • Karafan
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 786

    #2
    Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post
    I was watching this delightfully quaint and rather moving old documentary on Beethoven here. Be warned - this link is a portal down which an hour of your life will merrily sink, as you wonder at how the music is allowed to speak for itself; smile at the charming old chaps pretending to be caught in media res conversationally; nod approvingly at the marriage of image and sound, and chuckle at the image quality; cringe as Schindler is taken at his word, etc.

    Anyway, it provides a wonderful overview of that immense human life and the music produced therein, as well as, perhaps, some new tidbits of info (I didn't know about that funeral oration, for example). I also came across Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante for the first time, and am now listening to this lovely modern rendition:

    It got me thinking about Beethoven's first two symphonies, which I've returned to again and again this year. I don't find them dull at all but really revelatory, where the bud of all that was to blossom later is quite apparent at times. Joyful, powerful music and glimpses of that monumentality and cosmic element that would follow.

    I only have two versions: Harnoncourt, which I have grown to dislike and never put on, especially since acquiring Franz Konwitschny's Beethoven cycle with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra. I'm also a big fan of Furtwangler, though don't have him in Beethoven 1 or 2.

    Disappointingly, this hasn't been covered in BAL - but, then, I can't see an Eroica recommendation, either. (Harumph!)

    I tend to favour that golden era of Fifties and Sixties Beethoven from what little I've heard online and might invest in another cycle, or just the first two symphonies. Any recommendations for something monumental, transcendent, cosmic? Furious, yes, but not Gardiner fast, please. For example, I've heard Jochum called "Furtwängler-esque". If all three Jochum's cycles became available again, which has these qualities?

    I look forward to reading your suggestions.
    Great post - thank you.

    I agree with you about 1 & 2, real underrated little gems brimming with the prodigious promise of what was to follow.

    I have all three Jochum cycles and do enjoy them greatly, but the differences are relatively slight and, in any case, for a superb pairing of the first two symphonies, my hand would automatically reach for the absolutely spiffing readings by Monteux on Decca with the VPO & LSO respectively (the second being particularly fine: joyful and exuberant). Sadly, to acquire both would mean getting hold of both Double Decca sets - but, hey-ho, the cycle is brilliant and I wouldn't be without it!

    Karafan
    "Let me have my own way in exactly everything, and a sunnier and more pleasant creature does not exist." Thomas Carlyle

    Comment

    • Dave2002
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 18069

      #3
      One of the Monteux Duos is still quite hard to find - I trod this path a couple of years back.

      Check the shipping costs from the USA - http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symp...pr_product_top

      Both Duos seem expensive within the UK




      The 9th is on a separate Westminster CD.


      I thoroughly recommend Walter in 1 and 2.

      Comment

      • cloughie
        Full Member
        • Dec 2011
        • 22257

        #4
        Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
        Jochum's DG 1/2/4 and 8 have been long-term favourites of mine - to me Beethoven as it should be heard. Other sets of similar vintage worth a listen, the afore-mentioned LGO Konwitschny, LSO Krips and BPO Cluytens. Of course Klemperer, if you like his weighty style is always worth a listen and his earlier Eroica still presses all the buttons for me.

        Comment

        • aka Calum Da Jazbo
          Late member
          • Nov 2010
          • 9173

          #5
          ....always loved this



          on one of the recordings of any century imho

          i have lost my Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt Decca lps of the Beethoven ....
          According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

          Comment

          • vinteuil
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 13115

            #6
            Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post




            I tend to favour that golden era of Fifties and Sixties Beethoven from what little I've heard online and might invest in another cycle, or just the first two symphonies. Any recommendations for something monumental, transcendent, cosmic? .
            Thropplenoggin - having followed with interest your quest for Beethoven quartets with 'judicious' use of vibrato - I wd have thought you might be quite interested in recent HIPPer versions of the Beethoven symphonies (in addition to your interest in "fifties and sixties" interpretations).

            If you were looking for a recent view - I find Jos van Immerseel / Anima Eterna, and - even more so - Emmanuel Krivine / la Chambre Philharmonique - bring something quite exceptional to these works....

            Comment

            • ferneyhoughgeliebte
              Gone fishin'
              • Sep 2011
              • 30163

              #7
              Originally posted by vinteuil View Post
              If you were looking for a recent view - I find Jos van Immerseel / Anima Eterna, and - even more so - Emmanuel Krivine / la Chambre Philharmonique - bring something quite exceptional to these works....
              There are not s enough to express how much I agree with these recommendations (and with the "even more so"!). I share your reservations about Harnoncourt and Gardiner; these work better as part of their respective cycles than as individual performances of the two symphonies themselves. Everybody has made a lot of excellent recommendations and so far nobody has mentioned any recordings about which I would say "Avoid that at all costs" - some very good recordings all round of these superb, joyous, impudent masterworks.
              [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

              Comment

              • Barbirollians
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 11943

                #8
                The late RCA Wand coupling of 1 and 2 has given me great pleasure , Cluytens too. I agree about Harnoncourt - I couldn't get on with his Beethoven at all.

                Otherwise Jochum on EMI now at last available but only in that whopping Icon set just out on EMI - but you get complete Beethoven, Brahms and Bruckner cycles ! I love his 1 and 2 - in fact I love all of that cycle !

                Comment

                • Thropplenoggin

                  #9
                  Thanks for all the suggestions thus far. It's great to have a few names to go and hunt out on Spotify before shelling out on a CD.

                  Vinteuil and FHG: in your enthusiastic endorsement of the HIPPsters, you have even convinced me to re-asses this modus operandi, Harnoncourt having dissuaded me from investigating further with regard to Beethoven's symphonies.

                  One further general question: I'm a fan generally of Klemperer's 'Missa Solemnis' - I like his solemn, weighty approach - and have often seen his Beethoven symphonies receive excellent reviews. However, I know there are fairly substantial tempi difference between his two cycles, the later being substantially slower but has the advantage of being in stereo. I see, Cloughie, that you prefer the 1955 Eroica, for example. Why so?

                  This chap loves 3 and 5 from the mono cycle, and the rest from the stereo cycle (or should that be bi-cycle? Badum tish!)

                  Do others have a particular preference for Klemperer's earlier of later LBV cycle, and if so, why? Also, how different are the EMI and Mark Obert-Thorn Naxos transfers?

                  Comment

                  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                    Gone fishin'
                    • Sep 2011
                    • 30163

                    #10
                    I don't think there was a Klemperer Mono "cycle": just nos 3,5 & 7. Then EMI were converted to Stereo, so they did a complete cycle. The earlier performances are generally tauter (which pays particular dividends in the Seventh) but the "weight" of the later recordings have their own rewards.

                    A name not mentioned so far is Karajan, who recorded complete cycles in Mono, Stereo (twice), Digital and on film. There are pretty damn fine performances in them all, and the '60s cycle was my preference in these works for many years - and then along came Krivine!

                    [PS: Harnoncourt's COE cycle uses modern instruments, performing in a historically-informed manner. A HIPP replacement, perhaps?]
                    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                    Comment

                    • Thropplenoggin

                      #11
                      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                      I don't think there was a Klemperer Mono "cycle": just nos 3,5 & 7. Then EMI were converted to Stereo, so they did a complete cycle. The earlier performances are generally tauter (which pays particular dividends in the Seventh) but the "weight" of the later recordings have their own rewards.

                      A name not mentioned so far is Karajan, who recorded complete cycles in Mono, Stereo (twice), Digital and on film. There are pretty damn fine performances in them all, and the '60s cycle was my preference in these works for many years - and then along came Krivine!

                      [PS: Harnoncourt's COE cycle uses modern instruments, performing in a historically-informed manner. A HIPP replacement, perhaps?]
                      Like the man wearing orthopaedic shoes, I stand corrected: I think I lumped 'Nasty Nick' in with the wrong crowd.

                      Incidentally, on my wanderings down the byways off the Superhighway, I came across this 'live' performance of the Eroica. Apparently Otto's fastest ever reading of it, no doubt available on Testament for a ridiculous sum.

                      Comment

                      • Osborn

                        #12
                        As it happens, I'm hearing both at Symphony Hall next week, plus the violin concerto with Baiba Skride (who I've been keen to hear for a while). I'm afraid I'm just not interested in adding to the 60/70 CDs I have & cramming my living room with the ghosts of 80 or so performers. Should be good.

                        Comment

                        • jayne lee wilson
                          Banned
                          • Jul 2011
                          • 10711

                          #13
                          Osborn's CBSO concert is going live on R3, so there's a diary note.

                          Krivine has moved the goal-posts, put another peak in The Alps, etc. etc....

                          But yet again I'm moved to mention the great Hermann Scherchen, whose 1&2 really blazed a trail in the mid-50s & still sound marvellous. Richly Viennese (even with the RPO in 2), they are well up to HIPP-speed with pert & expressive phrasing but still with a sweet & cultured string sonority. No excess fat on the tone...

                          Best on Tahra (with a stunning 3&4, one of the greatest of all Vienna Eroicas) but Pristine has a mellower transfer of No.2 with the land-speed record-breaking No.8...(both RPO).

                          Comment

                          • verismissimo
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 2957

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Thropplenoggin View Post
                            ... especially since acquiring Franz Konwitschny's Beethoven cycle with the Leipzig Gewandhaus Orchestra.
                            I just acquired the Konwitschny/Leipzig cycle which I had some of in previous decades. 1 and 2 are good and I'm generally liking the cycle as far as I have reached (Pastoral). But the scherzo in 5.

                            Comment

                            • cloughie
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2011
                              • 22257

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                              I don't think there was a Klemperer Mono "cycle": just nos 3,5 & 7. Then EMI were converted to Stereo, so they did a complete cycle. The earlier performances are generally tauter (which pays particular dividends in the Seventh) but the "weight" of the later recordings have their own rewards.

                              A name not mentioned so far is Karajan, who recorded complete cycles in Mono, Stereo (twice), Digital and on film. There are pretty damn fine performances in them all, and the '60s cycle was my preference in these works for many years - and then along came Krivine!

                              [PS: Harnoncourt's COE cycle uses modern instruments, performing in a historically-informed manner. A HIPP replacement, perhaps?]
                              ferney, I couldn't have put better, your response regarding the Klemperer. There was also another 7th after the stereo cycle. On Karajan there were three DG cycles 60s,70s,80s - I agree with your comments that the 60s one was the one to have - the 50s Phiharmonia set overlapped the stereo era -No8 being the only one in stereo. I think also that up until the Karajan 60s set symphony cycles were recorded over a number of years rather than a few weeks or months. The DG Jochum 'set' took about 10 years, the earlier recordings being mono and I think two fourths and fifths in that time.

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