"Living Stereo" CD issues (Boxsets and SACDs)

[Ferretfancy]

I've just sauntered home with my new knee, and decided to listen to a couple of recently ordered early Living Stereo CDs on hybrid SACD discs. I can only play the stereo layer, but my system had done good justice to hybrids in the past.

Just for reference the discs are Earl Wild in Gershwin with the Boston Pops and Fiedler,another Pops disc which includes Slaughter on 10th Avenue, the Monteux Boston Pathetique, and the Munch Symphonie Fantastique.

All these recordings sound very odd indeed, with a very bloated phasey acoustic, edgy strings. muffled brass and what often seems to be old fashioned peak distortion. Imaging is very vague as well. It's a shame, because all the performances are interesting, and Wild plays Gershwin to the manner born, as does the orchestra.

I find it hard to believe that these admittedly early recordings ever sounded that bad, but I don't have the original stereos to compare them with. Perhaps somebody here knows these in their original form. I suspect that the standard layer on the SACDs has suffered some major mastering error, while maybe the SACD layer reproduces properly, otherwise why choose these items for remastering?

All very odd.
Ferret

[martin_opera]

I have the original Living Stereo (non SACD) version of the Gershwin and find it no different from other Living Stereo issues - well defined warm and vibrant big sounds. For a discussion on the benefits of the SACD version see Amazon US. Can't see any negative reviews - maybe you got a dud.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Glad to hear you and your new knee are back home, Ff.

I have an earlier CD transfer of the Wild Gershwin ( so much better than the cultivated variety!) and there are none of the faults you describe: it's bright, well-balanced (favouring the piano a little) and detailed. And a terrific performance, as you say.

[reinerfan]

I've just sauntered home with my new knee, and decided to listen to a couple of recently ordered early Living Stereo CDs on hybrid SACD discs. I can only play the stereo layer, but my system had done good justice to hybrids in the past.

Just for reference the discs are Earl Wild in Gershwin with the Boston Pops and Fiedler,another Pops disc which includes Slaughter on 10th Avenue, the Monteux Boston Pathetique, and the Munch Symphonie Fantastique.

All these recordings sound very odd indeed, with a very bloated phasey acoustic, edgy strings. muffled brass and what often seems to be old fashioned peak distortion. Imaging is very vague as well. It's a shame, because all the performances are interesting, and Wild plays Gershwin to the manner born, as does the orchestra.

I find it hard to believe that these admittedly early recordings ever sounded that bad, but I don't have the original stereos to compare them with. Perhaps somebody here knows these in their original form. I suspect that the standard layer on the SACDs has suffered some major mastering error, while maybe the SACD layer reproduces properly, otherwise why choose these items for remastering?

All very odd.
Ferret

I have the hybrid SACD discs and they sound very impressive via my Arcam SACD player and on my normal Accustic Arts CD player. It could be, as has been suggested, that you have faulty copies.
Raymond.

[Keraulophone]

Some of the 1950s/60s Living Stereo 3-channel recordings have been released as 3-channel / 2-channel hybrid SACDs, employing the centre speaker in a home 5.1 AV setup. Switching between the 2-track mix and 3-track original (usualy employing the 'Decca Tree' mic layout) clearly shows the extra presence provided by the latter in one's listening room. Recommended.

[Dave2002]

I didn't realise until a few minutes ago that a box set of Living Stereo CDs is available.

This will be no good to SACD or 3 channel enthusiasts, but may be of interest to regular CD collectors. I don't know the track listing, yet!

[Dave2002]

Some of the 1950s/60s Living Stereo 3-channel recordings have been released as 3-channel / 2-channel hybrid SACDs, employing the centre speaker in a home 5.1 AV setup. Switching between the 2-track mix and 3-track original (usualy employing the 'Decca Tree' mic layout) clearly shows the extra presence provided by the latter in one's listening room. Recommended.

Do we know which SACDs are multichannel? The box set seems fairly good value for 2 channel users, but the reviews of some of the SACDs suggest that the 3 channel versions are worth having - though at a cost. Would it be worth most collectors buying the box, and then topping up judiciously with the SACDs, or should the financially well endowed just go straight for the SACDs? [I can afford some SACDs , but probably not all of them at current prices - but it's possible that there are only a handful of 3 channel recordings in there anyway.]

[PJPJ]

.......

All these recordings sound very odd indeed, with a very bloated phasey acoustic, edgy strings. muffled brass and what often seems to be old fashioned peak distortion. Imaging is very vague as well. It's a shame, because all the performances are interesting, and Wild plays Gershwin to the manner born, as does the orchestra.

..........

All very odd.
Ferret

Some weeks ago I listened to several recordings of Bruch VC1 including Heifetz on RCA SACD. This is one of the stereo only ones - Wilkie and a Decca tree in the Kingsway Hall? I've had this in several incarnations and always thought it a fine release all round, but on this occasion, switching between several, I have to say it sounded awful in comparison, largely due to the very forward placing of Heifetz, especially to Gluzman's on BIS. Played on another occasion, in isolation, it sounded fine.

Last week, I sampled my Rhapsodies in Blue, standard CD, SACD and 24 bit download burned to DVD and Wild/Fiedler sounded splendid in the company.

The later Living Stereos can suffer from using more and more mics so the stereo morphs into a multi-mono confection. Furthermore, the engineers liked to ride into the red (to reduce tape hiss?) and, while most LP set-ups didn't detect this to a large extent, good CD and SACD players and keen ears like yours will pick up peak distortion. The worst example I have come across is in one of my favourite recordings - the Franck Symphony with Monteux - and the audiophile delight, Saint-Saens 3 with Munch, is not free from it either.

However, I think these SACDs reveal these early stereo recordings as well as anything else. It is quite possible there is nothing wrong with your discs and that you are hearing all the inherent faults in these 50 to 60 year old recordings, faults which afflict some Mercurys, too. All this leads me to prefer, as I've remarked before, Bert Whyte's Everest recordings for their greater transparency and technical superiority.

[PJPJ]

Do we know which SACDs are multichannel?

Bob Benson has reviewed a lot of these on his site. There's an interesting PS at the end of this one:

http://www.classicalcdreview.com/rcasacd.html

I have quite a few - I'll check the ones which interest you.

[Dave2002]

PJPJ

I think this must be the CD listing, now that the set can be obtained in the UK.

The comment about centre channel listening at the end of your link is interesting, though perhaps does not explain ferret's problems as he has been listening in 2 channel mode.

[Ferretfancy]

Thanks for all the comments, I must stress that I can only listen to SACDs using the hybrid option, as I do not have an SACD player.It's perfectly possible that heard on an SACD player these discs will sound fine, but they certainly do not on my high end Meridian system. I've just realised that there are a couple of Berlioz overtures with the BSO and Munch, where I should be able to compare the normal Living Stereo and SACD versions, and I'll test that out just as soon as I'm a bit more mobile, and report back.
What a great crowd gracee these boards !

Bws
Ferret

[richardfinegold]

I've just sauntered home with my new knee, and decided to listen to a couple of recently ordered early Living Stereo CDs on hybrid SACD discs. I can only play the stereo layer, but my system had done good justice to hybrids in the past.

Just for reference the discs are Earl Wild in Gershwin with the Boston Pops and Fiedler,another Pops disc which includes Slaughter on 10th Avenue, the Monteux Boston Pathetique, and the Munch Symphonie Fantastique.



All these recordings sound very odd indeed, with a very bloated phasey acoustic, edgy strings. muffled brass and what often seems to be old fashioned peak distortion. Imaging is very vague as well. It's a shame, because all the performances are interesting, and Wild plays Gershwin to the manner born, as does the orchestra.

I find it hard to believe that these admittedly early recordings ever sounded that bad, but I don't have the original stereos to compare them with. Perhaps somebody here knows these in their original form. I suspect that the standard layer on the SACDs has suffered some major mastering error, while maybe the SACD layer reproduces properly, otherwise why choose these items for remastering?

All very odd.
Ferret

I have those discs. I have listened to them on my 2 channel system in SACD and in 2 multichannel systems in SACD (3 channels only, of course). I have not noticed any of these issues
These recordings were originally made with 3 channels and then down mixed to two channels. How many channels are you listening in?

[Ferretfancy]

Richardfinegold

A slight misunderstanding. My complaint, if you can call it that, concerns listening to the SACD discs on a non SACD player, since I do not have the option to do otherwise. This leaves me with a suspicion that the hybrid layer for normal CD reproduction is below standard. I have many other Living Stereo CDs which have not been SACD mastered, and they sound fine.

The Meridian system I am using has various options for synthesising surround ambience, or simply to use two channel stereo, with or without using a centre speaker. Together with Dolby Pro Logic and other formats for DVD use, there are a number of other options, but Meridian do not support SACD. This is probably because they were originally involved in the development of Ambisonics. I must say that the surround mode that I have settled on gives very convincing results with no false artifacts that I can detect. It's not SACD, but its very good.

One of the RCA SACD discs contains a couple of overtures which I already have on conventional CD. As soon as I can I'll make a comparison.

Thanks very much for your reply, it's nice to know that you can enjoy the SACD versions to the full. They are all fine performances.

[Ferretfancy]

Richardfinegold

I've now had an opportunity to compare SACD and ordinary CD versions of Munch / BSO in Berlioz Beatrice and Benedict and Benvenuto Cellini using a standard CD player, and to my ears the original CD is both warmer and cleaner in sound. It isn't a huge difference. but the originals have a more atmospheric sense of space, and the climaxes are less brash. Of course, these are early recordings, but as an example the outburst after the jaunty introduction of Beatrice and Benedict is just a little less raucous than the sound on the SACD, with more inner detail.

The shortcomings I noticed on the SACD versions of Gershwin and others with the Boston Pops were more obvious than on the Berlioz, but I have no way of comparing them. All the same I have my suspicions and will avoid buying hybrid SACDs in future.

Bws
Ferret

[Gordon]

Some weeks ago I listened to several recordings of Bruch VC1 including Heifetz on RCA SACD. This is one of the stereo only ones - Wilkie and a Decca tree in the Kingsway Hall?

Heifetz made no recordings for RCA/Decca at Kingsway Hall [RCA moved to Decca in 1957 for UK distribution]. His Bruch Scottish Fantasy and VC1 with NewSO/Sargent were made at Walthamstowe in May 1961 and May 1962 respectively. The engineer on both occasions was indeed Wilkie. I have no record of Heifetz making anything at Kingsway during the RCA/EMI period either, they all seem to have been done at Abbey Road.