A confession - Sutherland and Pavarotti leave me cold

[Richard Tarleton]

Ah Tebaldi - another great technique little acting skill soprano!

Barbs, you tell us you've only been going to opera for five years, and you've airily dismissed three of the greatest opera singers of the last century. Your comments cannot be taken seriously. Tebaldi delivered some of the most dramatically powerful and meltingly beautiful performances in her chosen repertoire on record. Try her La Wally (IMV her finest on record), her Aida, her Adriana Lecouvreur, her Boheme....and she was part of one of the great operatic partnerships, with Carlo Bergonzi. I suppose he was no good either

[Ariosto]

Sutherland could be very good and I worked on recordings with her quite a lot.

I worked also with Pavarotti, who was, in my opinion, a third rate singer - unmusical, no vocal technique - a bit of an idiot really. But he did make a lot of money.

Tebaldi was one of - if not THE greatest. I never did work with her - sniff, sniff. She was unbelievable.

[Richard Tarleton]

Sutherland could be very good and I worked on recordings with her quite a lot.

I worked also with Pavarotti, who was, in my opinion, a third rate singer - unmusical, no vocal technique - a bit of an idiot really. But he did make a lot of money.

Tebaldi was one of - if not THE greatest. I never did work with her - sniff, sniff. She was unbelievable.

Thanks for that Ariosto, I was beginning to lose heart.

I did think Pavarotti was good in his prime (i.e. the early 70's) before he became fat and lazy. But yes, a bit of a one-trick pony.

I'd love to hear more about working with JS - and not working with Tebaldi - she was the first great singer whose voice I fell in love with (that would be in the late '60s).

[Ariosto]

Thanks for that Ariosto, I was beginning to lose heart.

I did think Pavarotti was good in his prime (i.e. the early 70's) before he became fat and lazy. But yes, a bit of a one-trick pony.

I'd love to hear more about working with JS - and not working with Tebaldi - she was the first great singer whose voice I fell in love with (that would be in the late '60s).

I have to admit that I only discovered Tebaldi about 8 or 9 years ago, when my wife bought a second hand recording on CD of her Madam Butterfly. I was knocked out, and other things i've heard since have reinforced that opinion. How can I have missed her for so long?

Joan S was a lovely lady who had a great sense of humour and her singing could be pretty wonderful. Her old man (Richard Boninge - hope that's the right spelling ) was fun too, not a great conductor, but highly knowledgeable about singing and opera of course. She humoured him a lot, but perhaps I shouldn't go into that too much.

Pavarotti only ever made one track on an LP that was any good. I forget which it was. He was 99.9% rubbish.

[Pianorak]

. . . Pavarotti only ever made one track on an LP that was any good. I forget which it was. He was 99.9% rubbish.

You probably know Herbert Breslin's "The King & I", The Uncensored tale of LP's rise to fame by his manager, friend and sometime adversary.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Joan S was a lovely lady who had a great sense of humour and her singing could be pretty wonderful. Her old man (Richard Boninge - hope that's the right spelling ) was fun too, not a great conductor, but highly knowledgeable about singing and opera of course. She humoured him a lot, but perhaps I shouldn't go into that too much.

Her "old man", Richard B., was actually her young man, i.e. her toyboy. John Culshaw was quite scathing about his abilities as a conductor.

[Barbirollians]

I have a number of Tebaldi's recordings and she was a great singer and much more expressive than Sutherland but she was not much of an actor on stage. I recall seeing her interviewed when she admitted it herself .

[Richard Tarleton]

I have a number of Tebaldi's recordings and she was a great singer and much more expressive than Sutherland but she was not much of an actor on stage. I recall seeing her interviewed when she admitted it herself .

I don't think for a moment she was suggesting she was anything less than a supreme interpreter of her chosen roles. Another great soprano in Verdian roles was Leontyne Price, who didn't really act at all, considering it was scarcely necessary - today she might be considered to have walked through her roles. She still managed to put down some of the finest Verdian performances on disc (look no further than Leonora, Elvira, er, Leonora.... I'm not sure if she did the third Leonora). Everything was in the voice.

This is why I'm struggling with this thread - what exactly do you mean by "acting"? None of us has seen Tebaldi on stage, nor Price...Sutherland in Lucia (in Act 1 for instance) was extremely touching (still using Zefirelli's direction) - and her mad scene supreme - it's all in the voice.

Part of the problem with the bel canto roles is that apart from the vocal line there was very little to many of the soprano parts - they were pale, passive creatures to whom things happened, they're usually the victim of circumstances or the actions of others, hard to make interesting. The interesting character parts went to the mezzo voice - witches and bitches.

[Barbirollians]

I don't think for a moment she was suggesting she was anything less than a supreme interpreter of her chosen roles. Another great soprano in Verdian roles was Leontyne Price, who didn't really act at all, considering it was scarcely necessary - today she might be considered to have walked through her roles. She still managed to put down some of the finest Verdian performances on disc (look no further than Leonora, Elvira, er, Leonora.... I'm not sure if she did the third Leonora). Everything was in the voice.

This is why I'm struggling with this thread - what exactly do you mean by "acting"? None of us has seen Tebaldi on stage, nor Price...Sutherland in Lucia (in Act 1 for instance) was extremely touching (still using Zefirelli's direction) - and her mad scene supreme - it's all in the voice.

Part of the problem with the bel canto roles is that apart from the vocal line there was very little to many of the soprano parts - they were pale, passive creatures to whom things happened, they're usually the victim of circumstances or the actions of others, hard to make interesting. The interesting character parts went to the mezzo voice - witches and bitches.

There are two distinct issues - I don't agree that the voice is everything where opera in the theatre is concerned . Unfair as it may have been to them but seeing very overweight middle aged singers pretending to be young lovers looks ridiculous no matter how well they sing .

The same applies to comedy on stage , the jokes do not only come from the music or the libretto - as pointed out above the Dessay/Florez DVD is a case in point . The production and the acting is just as important . If the voice were the only thing why stage opera at all .

There is , however, and I accept especially on record a profound difference . Tebaldi was and you give another example of Leontyne Price not a great actor on stage unlike Callas but the emotion and expression of their singing makes that unnecessary and will no doubt compensate for not being skilled as an actor .

Ferrier is another example she was not an actor as her response to being asked to play the lead in The Rape of Lucretia demonstrated.

My difficulty with Sutherland and Pavarotti in the recording I mentioned at the very start is that their singing does not convey that emotion or show any comic skill unlike say Sesto Bruscantini in Rossini or Sciutti in Don Pasquale referred to above .

[Richard Tarleton]

I think that's the subject well unpicked

Let's not even start on 57-year old Isoldes

[Barbirollians]

Or Schwarzkopf singing her top notes !

[Ariosto]

Her "old man", Richard B., was actually her young man, i.e. her toyboy. John Culshaw was quite scathing about his abilities as a conductor.

RB was of course ... but she did not seem to mind and, well, I'll leave it at that.

I'm not sure what J Culshaw does or does not know about conducting. RB had a funny twitch of his elbow which could throw you out at he start of a section, but once you got used to it I found it OK. he was very knowledgeable about singing and opera.

Was Culshaw a musician or just a record producer?

[rauschwerk]

Her "old man", Richard B., was actually her young man, i.e. her toyboy. John Culshaw was quite scathing about his abilities as a conductor.

Culshaw admired Bonynge's musical skills but what he objected to (see his Putting the Record Straight, p.294) was his absolute unwillingness to study conducting. Culshaw approached Monteux, who said he would be willing to give Bonynge lessons but Bonynge would not hear of it. He remained "strangely impervious to the shafts of irony which orchestral players would hurl at him from time to time."

[aeolium]

And yet despite such apparent amateurishness Bonynge could produce some very fine results, e.g. the recording of Semiramide with Sutherland and Marilyn Horne and the LSO in excellent form. I also like his recording of Alcina, again with Sutherland, despite its 'inauthenticity'.

[martin_opera]

I wouldn't want to be without any of the singers mentioned and they all shine in particular roles and are awful in others e.g. Tebaldi's Leonora preferable to Sutherland's but Sutherland's Violetta preferable to Tebaldi's - explained mainly by Tebaldi's absence of coloratura. I also have great regard for Pavarotti's Duke of Mantua, Riccardo and Calaf which are all highly detailed and intelligent readings but agree that he could be lazy on some recordings e.g. no comparison with Domingo in his Manrico and Radimes.

I do admire the Sutherland sound (especially her Puritani and early Lucia's) and agree that when matched with Horne she makes sublime sounds. However, it depends on what mood I'm in. Take Norma, if I want to be carried away on soft waves of beautiful sound in the background I'll listen to Sutherland and Horne. if I want to get involved in the story and characters I'll turn to Callas and Ludwig or for specific tracks, Scotto and Freni.

In sum, life would be decidedly less rich without Sutherland and Pavarotti if only on threads like this one!!