Gulda's Beethoven Release on Orfeo 1953-57

[Bryn]

I gave Brautigam a spin in op.111 last night. He really tore through the Arietta, losing all sense of cosmic mystery and transcendence which many pianoforte pianists are able to tease out of its depths, namely the immense Solomon (my current favourite) and even Pollini (my introduction to the work).

Am I right in thinking Brautigam is using HIP tempi here, applying principles derived from Beethoven's day about playing?

If so, isn't there a danger he loses the 'feel' of the piece by dashing through it. There's no space, no silence, for the music to breathe in.

Timings:

Brautigam: 15' 06
Pollini: 17' 23
Solomon: 17' 57

Not that timings tell all, but on historical instruments:

P B-S: 16' 00"
Komen: 18' 13"
Beghin: 16' 34"
Binns: 17' 54"

As Beethoven only offered metronome markings for one sonata, Op. 106, it is up to the performer to interpret the verbal indications.

[rkyburz]

I gave Brautigam a spin in op.111 last night. He really tore through the Arietta, losing all sense of cosmic mystery and transcendence which many pianoforte pianists are able to tease out of its depths, namely the immense Solomon (my current favourite) and even Pollini (my introduction to the work).

Am I right in thinking Brautigam is using HIP tempi here, applying principles derived from Beethoven's day about playing?

If so, isn't there a danger he loses the 'feel' of the piece by dashing through it. There's no space, no silence, for the music to breathe in.

Timings:

Brautigam: 15' 06
Pollini: 17' 23
Solomon: 17' 57

That experience is to be expected — I can definitely imagine how that feels; it's not always easy to "travel back in time": the problem is that you are looking at performances almost 200 years back — with the ears that got used to the modern concert grand. In the case of fast movements, this typically adds a vivid, lively, dramatic, colorful perspective which to many is refreshing, if not mind-blowing (to a degree that may make it hard to go back to "modern" performances). Now, in the case of slow movements, that "backwards perspective" may be a bit harder to "digest". One should keep in mind that Beethoven did not have the technical means that the modern concert grand offers: with the fast movements one may claim that a modern piano lacks agility, whereas for the slow movement one might (in retrospective, of course) claim that the fortepiano lacked the ability to support real slow playing (which we all like and got used to on the modern grand). As said: I understand your reaction, but I think that it may not be the best idea to listen to these two extremes side by side (it is for good reason that I group modern piano and fortepiano performances together when listening through a series of recordings). It may take a while to get used to the fortepiano in slow movements — but then, one should also keep in mind tempo relations: after all, the fast movements are faster on the fortepiano, too. It's jut the same discussion as with, e.g., listening to the Goldberg variations on harpsichord vs. modern piano! In a way, both perspectives may have their merits: as much as I like & love Brautigams Beethoven (or Mozart), I also still like listening to Backhaus in the Arietta of op.111 — but I would hardly listen to these two versions side by side, because whatever version I'm "tuned to", it would make it hard to appreciate the "other" version.

[rkyburz]

Interesting — I just collected a couple more "data points":

Barenboim: 20:27 (!)
Schnabel: 17:42
Katchen: 16:44
Badura-Skoda: 16:23 (Bösendorfer)
Gulda: 15:32 (second recording)
Kempff: 15:24
Brautigam: 15:06 (as stated already by TN)
Backhaus: 13:09

[Bryn]

I have an interesting Ermitage CD of three performances of op. 111 by Backhaus, Arrau and P B-S. The accompanying programme notes discuss the different approaches to the work.

Anyway, in this case:

Backhaus (Bechstein): 13' 42"
Arrau (Steinway): 18' 29"
P B-S (Bösendorfer): 16' 22"

Search for "Klaviersonate 32/+ [Import]" at amazon.co.uk and you should find copies of the CD via the marketplace.

[vinteuil]

http://www.news.cornell.edu/Chronicle/97/10.16.97/Bilson.html

By the way, one of the fortepianists on the Claves set, Tom Beghin, went on to record a really very interesting set of Haydn Sonatas which were released on a set of Blu-ray Audio discs by Naxos. Not only did he use a variety of period instruments for those recordings, the engineers sought to reconstruct the acoustics of a variety of venues they might originally have been heard in. I still marginally prefer Christine Schornsheim's Haydn survey, but the Beghin makes a fine supplement.

... the Tom Beghin Haydn is now also available as a naxos box of 12 CDs + 1 DVD - so you don't need to be a blu-ray person
I agree that it is good, and interesting, but - like Bryn - for Haydn, my preference still rests with Christine Schornsheim

[verismissimo]

... for Haydn, my preference still rests with Christine Schornsheim

Yep. (And Gilbert Kalish!)

[akiralx]

Gulda is still my preference for Mozart concerti - in addition to the four for DG with Abbado, there are K271 (9) on Orfeo with Bohm, and K488 (23) and K537 (26) with Harnoncourt. All superb.

[silvestrione]

To return to the question asked at the start, I love the Orfeo recordings, and think they are that rare thing, evidence of a pianist who is not just good but a genius (by which I mean extraordinarily gifted musically and pianistically in ways that leave one astonished and lost in wonder), and. on top of that, one of that select band of pianists who just naturally inhabit the world of Beethoven's sonatas and constantly illuminate it and set it alight (apologies for tired figures of speech). These are a young man's performances, very obviously, he revels in his own ability, but in a musical way, like the young Pollini or Van Cliburn. Fast speeds, energy, drama, a sense of how Beethoven was always extending the powers of the instrument, pushing what it could do. But searching, and not incapable of being profound when the music asks for it. For me it goes with Schnabel, Kempff (mono), Barenboim (HMV), Brendel, Arrau, Gilels, Solomon, Richter, Pollini...though not all of those completed a full set.

I have not heard the later set! Saving that up for the future.

[Thropplenoggin]

To return to the question asked at the start, I love the Orfeo recordings, and think they are that rare thing, evidence of a pianist who is not just good but a genius (by which I mean extraordinarily gifted musically and pianistically in ways that leave one astonished and lost in wonder), and. on top of that, one of that select band of pianists who just naturally inhabit the world of Beethoven's sonatas and constantly illuminate it and set it alight (apologies for tired figures of speech). These are a young man's performances, very obviously, he revels in his own ability, but in a musical way, like the young Pollini or Van Cliburn. Fast speeds, energy, drama, a sense of how Beethoven was always extending the powers of the instrument, pushing what it could do. But searching, and not incapable of being profound when the music asks for it. For me it goes with Schnabel, Kempff (mono), Barenboim (HMV), Brendel, Arrau, Gilels, Solomon, Richter, Pollini...though not all of those completed a full set.

I have not heard the later set! Saving that up for the future.

Thanks for such a thorough review, silvestrione. You make it sound like a tantalising proposition, well, perhaps when it comes down in price! I'm constantly tempted by Gulda's WTC, which is often at a bargain price of around £3 from the Amazon marketplace.