Jayne Lee Wilson's thoughts on Norrington's Beethoven

[HighlandDougie]

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be! Thanks JLW and Ariosto for a fine, civilised discussion.

I'll second that. Ariosto's comments are both illuminating and interesting - so please, A, don't stop the posts. In the light of the comments about vibrato (admittedly it's written by a flautist so maybe it doesn't count), I remembered the following:

http://lsoontour.wordpress.com/2010/01/27/paul-mccartney-isnt-hip-anymore/

[Ariosto]

I'll second that. Ariosto's comments are both illuminating and interesting - so please, A, don't stop the posts. In the light of the comments about vibrato (admittedly it's written by a flautist so maybe it doesn't count), I remembered the following:

http://lsoontour.wordpress.com/2010/...t-hip-anymore/

Well, erm -thanks for the encouragement - but I'm not sure that I would agree with a lot of what is said in that piece.

I've always believed that vibrato should not only be instantly variable but should easlily be switched off if necessary. I've never found that a problem, but well, maybe it can be for some. I'm not a great fan either of JEG as a conductor so perhaps I should shut up.

Personally I think that many things (such as scales) should be practised both with and without vibrato. If a conductor requests a passage to be played without vibrato, or with less vibrato, then this should be no problem. I can't speak for wind players though, so perhaps they should speak up and put their case.

[PJPJ]

In the light of the comments about vibrato (admittedly it's written by a flautist so maybe it doesn't count), I remembered the following:

http://lsoontour.wordpress.com/2010/...t-hip-anymore/

Interesting item; so much has written about string players' use of vibrato and its history of common use in orchestras. Wind vibrato is rare in pre-1940 recordings, isn't it - did Leon Goossens pioneer its use?

[Dave2002]

Personally I think that many things (such as scales) should be practised both with and without vibrato. If a conductor requests a passage to be played without vibrato, or with less vibrato, then this should be no problem. I can't speak for wind players though, so perhaps they should speak up and put their case.

I tend to agree with you, on behalf of flute players at least. I was surprised in the article that Gareth Davies suggested that there were difficulties in playing without vibrato, though it might not be so much a physical thing as a mental one. It would depend on the player. I think a good player should be able to play notes pretty plain though that might present difficulties for some. It could actually be quite hard if a player has been used to adding vibrato in order (even subconsciously) to overcome poor breath control. I believe that most professional players should be able to hold a note pretty rock steady for at least 30 seconds without changes of pitch or volume, so it really shouldn't be a problem for them. In that case vibrato should be seen as an "add-on" - a sort of varnish perhaps. That's where the mental side comes in. If a player is used to playing with vibrato, then being asked to play without may cause them to feel that the sound is dull, and they might resist that. Possibly also a further complication might be the lack of acoustic feedback in some venues, where players might often have to play without really being able to hear the sound they are making. That could make it hard to know whether vibrato is switched on or off for someone who is used to one fixed setting of the switch.

There are also slight variations in techniques for producing vibrato, and these can also vary between woodwind instruments. Perhaps it is just something which one picks up (or not) naturally - the oboist Pierre Pierlot once said in an interview that he could say "nothing sensible about it" a caution for someone about to say something about it. Thinking about it doesn't help much!

There are some amateur players who use vibrato possibly/probably because they can't play notes straight. If possible, they should be delicately persuaded to go and seek help, but of course music is meant to be enjoyed, so it's better that they get fun out of it rather than have their pleasure dashed by others commenting on/criticising the way they play.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Personally I think that many things (such as scales) should be practised both with and without vibrato. If a conductor requests a passage to be played without vibrato, or with less vibrato, then this should be no problem. I can't speak for wind players though, so perhaps they should speak up and put their case.

As an oboist, I agree with you. Uncontrolled vibrato can be hideous. I've often thought that both Leon Goossens and Evelyn Rothwell/Barbirolli went just a little too far, though both used vibrato very expressively. Heinz Holliger, on the other hand, seemed to get it exactly right, as do most British orchestral players.

[Tony Halstead]

Hello Dave2002

music is meant to be enjoyed, so it's better that they get fun out of it rather than have their pleasure dashed by others commenting on/criticising the way they play.

What a wonderfully wise comment.
I'm with you all the way on that!

[Karafan]

Well, Jayne et al, I am enjoying the box which arrived on Friday. Listened to 1, 2 and 6 so far. Very good, swift airy recordings with plenty of bite; the storm sequence in the Pastoral was a real tour de force.

Many thanks for the heads-up. I shall be auditioning Norrington's Bruckner 6 soon too.

K.

[Barbirollians]

Hi Karafan - have you got round to listening to the Kletzki Sibelius yet >

[Karafan]

Hi Karafan - have you got round to listening to the Kletzki Sibelius yet >

I have, thank you, and I am very impressed with it Barbirollians.

The Philharmonia really respond well to Kletzki (I am re-listening to No. 2 again as I write). Though 1 and 3 are scarcely less impressive. The second though, unbelievably from July 1955, is given a finely moulded performance, brimming with real Nordic splendour and the fabulous Philharmonia woodwind section are worth the price of admission alone!

The late and much lamented Dennis Brain is doubtless making his contribution in the enchanting discourse between winds and horns in the first movement.

Thanks very much for the pointers to the Kletzki Sibelius - a magical addition to the Sibelius shelves!

K.

[Barbirollians]

The Sibelius 2 is indeed stunning and for me is up there with the legendary RPO/Barbirolli but I have a particular soft spot for his version of No1 . Kletzki was a great conductor of Tchaikovsky and I think it shows .

[Sir Velo]

As Micky D pointed out on another thread, the LCP Beethoven series is re-released by Erato.

Scrolling through the list of Norrington recordings, I encountered this, at least to me, unknown portrait of the great man. Only the jawline gives away the characteristic Beethoven attitude of defiance.




[Ed] I've since been reliably informed that the image is, of course, that of David's portrait of Jacobus Blauw, the Dutch patriot, whose image was presumably no doubt chosen by the record company for his republican sympathies.

[smittims]

Yes, its' far too Aryan for Beethoven, who is often speculated to have been one-quarter or one-eighth Afro-Caribbean.

[Pulcinella]

Yes, its' far too Aryan for Beethoven, who is often speculated to have been one-quarter or one-eighth Afro-Caribbean.

I wonder what Lady Hussey would have made of that.

[Bryn]

I wonder what Lady Hussey would have made of that.

She would not be bothered. The hair's wrong.