Jayne Lee Wilson's thoughts on Norrington's Beethoven

[french frank]

He [Mravinsky] also did not look encouraging!

There's an understatement! Does a photograph of him laughing or smiling exist?

Just about! I think it's a smile.

[Ariosto]

But ariosto, if the orchestra really do ignore them so much, why do the readings sound so different? Why do listeners want to hear many conductors' take on the standard repertoire? Why would Norrington be so controversial if his conducting is largely ignored?

I think you, EA and others have to at least accept that Norrington playing LVB in Japan, or Mahler in the RAH, is going to sound very different from Haydn or Beethoven in Stuttgart, where he and the orchestra have self-evidently worked on the sound itself, as well as the interpretative approach, for many months if not years. I have myself sometimes disliked the "dead" string sound, the stiff phrasing and metronomic beat in HIPP-styled performances from Norrington and others, but it isn't true of these particular Stuttgart cycles, which are consistently fresh and expressive.

Gardiner is my usual bete noire, but earlier this year his 2008 Edinburgh Festival Brahms German Requiem was released, and it's one of the greatest of all performances (I bought his earlier account and rather regretted doing so). So I think one can't always brand a conductor with a particular approach, just because it makes musical judgment easier. It remains a problem that we tend to identify ourselves with our opinions, and the longer we hold them the harder it gets to acknowledge change and error.

Although I recognise that some of the playing is good in the Beethoven that we had the links to, I personally don't think anything much has changed. It always boils down to (and its the same with HIPP players and orchestras) that the fast movements are very fast and work well until the semi-quavers and quavers are over, and the sutained passage comes up. Then we hear this very dead sound that makes the musical line sag to a point where for me at any rate, I want to just switch off, or go home if its in a concert situation. For me it is not good music making. And the slow movements - don't even bother!

As to the conductor being ignored, it happens and varies a lot. Barenboim said recently that orchestral players often say that they don't look at the conductor much, but he felt that was exagerated. But he may be right in his case because he is extremely admired amongst musicians, and boy, he knows a lot about conducting technique and musicianship. Very few conductors since the year zero have his talents, and as a pianist as well. For the average conductor - the amount of looking is not that high. I think musicians hate looking at Rattle when he conducts, for example, so they listen and look at each other more than at him. Listening is the key and this is where good orchestras excell. They play it as chamber music and it does not matter who the drooling idiot on the box is, they make music. Unfortunately in the last 60 plus years we have a growing cult of the "celebrity" conductor. They are over rated and overpaid, in my opinion, and offer little other than playing to the gallery and the audiences.

Conductors are generally over-rated by the general public, and I think most players would be happy to just play and not have someone throwing themselves around and distracting everyone including the audience. Of course there are *some* great conductors who are admired and do not get in the way. (Baremboim is one of these in my view). Differences in interpretation are a matter of personal taste, and I doubt that many of us will agree about that.

RN is controversial because he insists with his own orchestra that they play mainly without vibrato (but I notice the odd player still using vibrato) and this along with his propaganda about orchestras not using vibrato before about 1940 and Mahler never hearing orchestral vibrato is just rubbish, and he he uses such mis-information to justify his own extremism. I have found it hard to find orchestral musicians who like working with him, and some resort to four letter words when I mention his name. These include leaders as well as rank and file players.

[PJPJ]

Just about! I think it's a smile.

Hmmmm, v e r y f i s h y........

[Karafan]

Yes, it's in the August 2003 edition, and very elegantly and amusingly written it is. But I had to dig among my back issues - I still can't locate it among the surrealist forest of typos that is Gramofile... if you locate that issue in the archive and have more luck than I do with the site's workings, you might be able to read it there.

From RO's review:

"One of an elite cadre of English conductors parachuted in behind enemy lines in the mid-1990s, Norrington has helped mastermind the "modern orchestras/old methods" approach to Beethoven performance."

"To conduct Beethoven, you probably need a preternatural degree of self-belief; to know him, you also need to know yourself. Which may explain why interpretative decisions which had me tearing my hair out a month or two ago (the ludicrously quick start to the Eroica's funeral march, for example) have since come to seem entirely right within the context of the performance itself and the cycle as a whole."

Thanks Jayne - greatly obliged.

K.

[Dave2002]

... I think most players would be happy to just play and not have someone throwing themselves around and distracting everyone including the audience. Of course there are *some* great conductors who are admired and do not get in the way. (Baremboim is one of these in my view). Differences in interpretation are a matter of personal taste, and I doubt that many of us will agree about that.

Apart from a few chamber orchestras and very occasionally a large orchestra (e.g the Leipzig Gewandhaus after Konwitschny died) there's not much to be said for conductorless orchestras. OK, they may sound no worse than under a poor conductor, but they're unlikely to sound as good as under a good one. Performances would be a bit like a bus ride, where all the passengers want to go to different destinations by different routes. Even Boris would probably not think that's a good idea.

[Panjandrum]

Conductors are generally over-rated by the general public, and I think most players would be happy to just play and not have someone throwing themselves around and distracting everyone including the audience. Of course there are *some* great conductors who are admired and do not get in the way. (Baremboim is one of these in my view). Differences in interpretation are a matter of personal taste, and I doubt that many of us will agree about that.

I think while Ariosto and other similarly experienced players will hold strong opinions of how to perform certain works, resulting in their often finding their opinions of repertoire at odds with those of the conductor, it needs to be remembered that there will be many within the rank and file who are younger with less knowledge or understanding of many works, including core repertoire. Much symphonic music requires someone at the helm making decisions as to how the work will "go", otherwise it will sound like an ungodly racket. Any conductor with any strength of character will not tolerate orchestral members going off piste against their instructions, and I cannot imagine any player being allowed to remain in an orchestra after persistently countermanding conductors' instructions.

While it may seem to those in the ranks that the conductor gets far too much of the praise for a successful performance, they should bear in mind that when the orchestra is off form it is invariably the conductor that takes the panning from the critics.

[Karafan]

Just about! I think it's a smile.

Photoshop: J'accuse!

[Bryn]

But ariosto, if the orchestra really do ignore them so much, why do the readings sound so different? Why do listeners want to hear many conductors' take on the standard repertoire? Why would Norrington be so controversial if his conducting is largely ignored?

I think you, EA and others have to at least accept that Norrington playing LVB in Japan, or Mahler in the RAH, is going to sound very different from Haydn or Beethoven in Stuttgart, where he and the orchestra have self-evidently worked on the sound itself, as well as the interpretative approach, for many months if not years. I have myself sometimes disliked the "dead" string sound, the stiff phrasing and metronomic beat in HIPP-styled performances from Norrington and others, but it isn't true of these particular Stuttgart cycles, which are consistently fresh and expressive.

Somewhat OT but I have been perusing http://www.gramophone.co.uk/features...icle1_headline . I see they leave the best 'till last.

[Barbirollians]

I have always been somewhat bemused by Norrrington . I never know whether I am going to be mad , glad or indifferent to his interpretations ( the Brahms 1,( just plain wrong ) Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique( which i still love ) and the Mahler 9 ( which did not outrage me or thrill me but rather bored me )

[jayne lee wilson]

Although I recognise that some of the playing is good in the Beethoven that we had the links to, I personally don't think anything much has changed. It always boils down to (and its the same with HIPP players and orchestras) that the fast movements are very fast and work well until the semi-quavers and quavers are over, and the sutained passage comes up. Then we hear this very dead sound that makes the musical line sag to a point where for me at any rate, I want to just switch off, or go home if its in a concert situation. For me it is not good music making. And the slow movements - don't even bother!

As to the conductor being ignored, it happens and varies a lot. Barenboim said recently that orchestral players often say that they don't look at the conductor much, but he felt that was exagerated. But he may be right in his case because he is extremely admired amongst musicians, and boy, he knows a lot about conducting technique and musicianship. Very few conductors since the year zero have his talents, and as a pianist as well. For the average conductor - the amount of looking is not that high. I think musicians hate looking at Rattle when he conducts, for example, so they listen and look at each other more than at him. Listening is the key and this is where good orchestras excell. They play it as chamber music and it does not matter who the drooling idiot on the box is, they make music. Unfortunately in the last 60 plus years we have a growing cult of the "celebrity" conductor. They are over rated and overpaid, in my opinion, and offer little other than playing to the gallery and the audiences.

Conductors are generally over-rated by the general public, and I think most players would be happy to just play and not have someone throwing themselves around and distracting everyone including the audience. Of course there are *some* great conductors who are admired and do not get in the way. (Baremboim is one of these in my view). Differences in interpretation are a matter of personal taste, and I doubt that many of us will agree about that.

RN is controversial because he insists with his own orchestra that they play mainly without vibrato (but I notice the odd player still using vibrato) and this along with his propaganda about orchestras not using vibrato before about 1940 and Mahler never hearing orchestral vibrato is just rubbish, and he he uses such mis-information to justify his own extremism. I have found it hard to find orchestral musicians who like working with him, and some resort to four letter words when I mention his name. These include leaders as well as rank and file players.

Well Ariosto, I wouldn't take issue with much of that, except to wonder, then, why more orchestras don't try the conductorless approach. The Orpheus CO is of course a brilliant example, but could they be the exception that proves the rule? I haven't heard many of their recordings but note that I tend to prefer those with a soloist leading them, as in the excellent Richard Goode Mozart Piano Concerto series. But if you left all to a leader, wouldn't it still need interpretative decisions, leading us back to conducting after all? She might ask the band to play faster, then stop again to say, not just faster, more urgent really, then ask for "louder", only to have to add fuller or richer...

I remember an edition of Andre Previn's music night where he left the podium mid-movement, assuring the audience that the performance would fall apart. Of course it didn't, but I don't recall him coming to any unusual or even firm conclusions later about "Who Needs a Conductor". It may be on youtube somewhere.

Watching the Berlin DCH, it can be comically obvious from facial expression and body language which conductors the orchestra doesn't respect! But oddly enough in Rattle's concerts I always felt they looked at him rather more than I would have expected.
Conductors don't need to be liked though, do they? Did many members of his Cleveland orchestra look forward to every rehearsal? It didn't stop Szell leaving a remarkable recorded legacy.

[Karafan]

As for the Gramophone review from August 2003, needless to say the Gramophone Archive site is up to its usual unco-operative tricks, so you weren't alone Jayne!

I shall have to live without RO's wise & witty words Having checked my shelves I note my subscription ceased in 2002.

K.

Am itching for the set to arrive though now the old appetite has been so gloriously whetted

[Petrushka]

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be! Thanks JLW and Ariosto for a fine, civilised discussion.

[Ariosto]

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be! Thanks JLW and Ariosto for a fine, civilised discussion.

I realise that I tread a very thin line here, because orchestral players see a conductor from the front and the audience see him/her from the back. That's probably why the public thought Flash Harry (Malcolm Sargent) was so good, he looked great from behind!! (I never worked with him so I'm guessing a bit, as well as remembering what players said at the time).

Some conductors earn respect even though initially the orchestra might not agree with their approach, but then become convinced in the end by their sheer musical ability. These conductors are rare of course. (I have an example of the late Otto Klemplerer).

I think it would be fairly accurate to say that most orchestral musicians (and some soloists) are sceptical about a conductor until such time as he/she proves themselves. In fact I think this can be a bit extreme sometimes, as some orchestras make up their minds fairly instantly and refuse to change. I have also seen this, but also to be fair, some have changed their opinion over a short period of time.

I don't think that the difference between what the public generally think and what orchestral players think will ever be fully reconciled, but I could be wrong!!

[Alison]

I am certainly compelled to re-audition this set. My starting point was the Ninth, a glorious rendition, and nothing for me quite matched that standard.

[Ariosto]

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be! Thanks JLW and Ariosto for a fine, civilised discussion.

Thanks Petrushka. But it is easy to have a good civilised disscussion with JLW even if we view things from slightly different perspectives, and I hope we can continue in the same way.

The problem at least for me is when certain member(s) of this forum resort to personal attacks and put downs as soon as I say something they disagree with. A certain youth orchestra from far away was the subject of a recent case. It makes me just want to stop posting when I have to suffer such blockheads.

But turning back to the discussion about Norrington, a few months ago I attended a masterclass at the RAM for string quartets given by the now retired concertmaster of the Berlin Phil - he was there during most if not all of the Karajan years.

At one point he was talking to the quartet about vibrato, and mentioned that he hated the non use in Norrington's orchestra, and how awful it must be to have to work with him with such constraints. He did appear to feel quite strongly about the subject! Although I did get to speak to him later, I did not bring this up, as time was the enemy, but it would have been interesting to have found out more. As I mentioned I have spoken with other players including orchestral leaders who have strong feelings on this subject. But then maybe we players are all misguided?