Ring Cycle at last

[umslopogaas]

Many thanks pianorak. Good to put a face to the voice, its over forty years since I heard that LP.

I'm a bit confused by this technology (a not infrequent occurrence), it enables you to view/hear the performance on your computer, but I would prefer to own the CD: are the details buried somewhere in there? If so, I missed them.

[grandchant]

A question which I am not techie enough to answer (so please keep any answers simple!): how does the sound from a CD and that from a DVD compare (assuming the sound from both is directed through a stereo system).

DVD quality isn't as good, but personally I find it acceptable. For technical reasons (which we aren't mentioning) the audio from a video DVD isn't on the disc in the same quality as CD, and to compound the problem, CD and DVD players vary in their quality of reproduction; and that's before we consider the rest of the equipment and whether our respective acuteness of hearing is comparable and whether or not what's acceptable to me is acceptable to you anyway.

If you want you can download these files which compare two excerpts of the Boulez cycle on CD and DVD. Although the files are mp3 the quality should be sufficient to make a comparison:

https://sites.google.com/site/bytes9365/RideCD.mp3

https://sites.google.com/site/bytes9365/RideDVD.mp3

https://sites.google.com/site/bytes9365/Ein SchwertCD.mp3
https://sites.google.com/site/bytes9365/Ein SchwertDVD.mp3

(Use copy and paste as I hadn't realised the spaces in the address would cause a problem)

To play these through your stereo either put them on an mp3 player and use the aux input or burn them onto a CD and play them from there.

Finally this picture shows the files in an editor for comparison:

https://sites.google.com/site/bytes9365/CD DVD comp.JPG

Good luck if you decide to try this!

[Pianorak]

Many thanks pianorak. Good to put a face to the voice, its over forty years since I heard that LP.

I'm a bit confused by this technology (a not infrequent occurrence), it enables you to view/hear the performance on your computer, but I would prefer to own the CD: are the details buried somewhere in there? If so, I missed them.

The CD is not buried somewhere on that link. You might like to get from Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Anna-Russell-Album/dp/B0000263ED/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340536732&sr=8-1

Click on 8 used from £1.98 and order it from Zoverstocks (plus p&p) who I find very quick and reliable. Enjoy!

PS. I prefer the CD. I find her knowing and conspiratorial looks rather trying.

[johnb]

DVD quality isn't as good, but personally I find it acceptable. For technical reasons (which we aren't mentioning) the audio from a video DVD isn't on the disc in the same quality as CD, and to compound the problem, CD and DVD players vary in their quality of reproduction; and that's before we consider the rest of the equipment and whether our respective acuteness of hearing is comparable and whether or not what's acceptable to me is acceptable to you anyway.

I fear that I might be opening a bag of worms here. However...

In general, there is no reason why the (stereo) audio on a DVD should be any worse than that on a CD, provided they are both PCM (CDs are 16/44.1, DVDs 16/48), but there are some DVDs that only have the stereo in lossily compressed ac3 format (e.g. the Haitink Xmas Matinee Mahler Cycle).

In the case of the Boulez Ring I seem to remember that the DVD version was originally recorded on video, rather than film, and the audio for the CD set was separately recorded so we are starting with two different audio sources and it is quite likely that the audio used on the DVDs was not on of the same technical quality as that used for the CD set.

But, and this is a big 'but', when I am watching a DVD I find that I am very much less critical of the sound than when I am listening only - the brain seems to give priority to the visual over the audio. In any case, the benefits of the DVD set out weigh the drawbacks (even if one is actually aware of the drawbacks). For example, the Haitink Mahler DVD set is very highly regarded by most of the people here, even though, on a technical level, the sound is markedly below CD quality (from memory, I think it is ac3 192kbps - much worse than Radio 3 iPlayer). Therefore I believe that comparing the audio only mp3 files gives a somewhat false impression.

Having said all that, I agree with grandchant about CD/DVD players, etc.

If you happen to have an audio system that accepts a digital input then using the digital ouput of the DVD player is the best option.

[umslopogaas]

Pianorak, thanks for those details, I shall order one right away.

[Stephen Smith]

johnb - #34
"...the sound is markedly below CD quality (from memory, I think it is ac3 192kbps - much worse than Radio 3 iPlayer). Therefore....."
I've been rooting around trying to establis what the (usual) bit rate is on the radio iPlayer - replay that is (not the liive stream in HD) where bitrate is more important for me is on replay of R3 material of course. Can you indicate the iPlayer bitrate ?

As to the DVD audio - I'm no expert but just something I have seen - comment in an audio forum for the latter Opus Arte DVDs - that the audio is excellent being replayed digitally (e.g. via an AV Receiver) and quality far exceeds anything broadcast by the BBC (e.g. including Freeview, freesat) (I'm not sure at what point in the broadcast chain the lack of quality sets in). However, I suppose for older DVD productions it depends on the format used for the audio in production at the time.
Regards
Stephen

[johnb]

Stephen,

For both Listen Live and Listen Again the default for Radio 3 on the iPlayer is 320 kbps AAC-LC. I say 'default' as there is also the low bandwidth option on the iPlayer panel.

There is no reason why the technical quality of DVDs which have their stereo as PCM (16/48) should be any less than that of CDs (and, of course, there is the surround sound option). You could argue that the stereo should be marginally better because of the higher sampling rate but in reality it is much of a muchness.

We all know that the Radio 3 broadcasts on FM, DAB, Freeview, Freesat are not up to the audio quality of CDs, so saying that Opus Arte DVD's "quality far exceeds anything broadcast by the BBC" is merely stating what should be a given. (Mind you, the iPlayer at 320 kbps AAC-LC is pretty good.)

[JimD]

I am very grateful for the display of expertise in response to my naïve query about CDs and DVDs, though I feel I should apologise to DoctorT for subverting his/her thread!

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I am very grateful for the display of expertise in response to my naïve query about CDs and DVDs

As am I

[grandchant]

For technical reasons (which we aren't mentioning) the audio from a video DVD isn't on the disc in the same quality as CD

What I meant is that, although the sound on each format is presumably from the same original recording, they are apparently processed differently and, in the cases I've looked at, the DVD sound has a more limited dynamic range (less difference between loud and soft). Although it may contain the same amount of information from the source, it's a different sound from CD.

[DoctorT]

I am very grateful for the display of expertise in response to my naïve query about CDs and DVDs, though I feel I should apologise to DoctorT for subverting his/her thread!

Apology accepted JimD! ('His' thread by the way). Thanks to all: have ordered Janowski. Hope it continues to rain or I'll be diverted into the garden!

[Dave2002]

A question which I am not techie enough to answer (so please keep any answers simple!): how does the sound from a CD and that from a DVD compare (assuming the sound from both is directed through a stereo system).

That's a non-trivial question. The simple answer is:

1. It depends on the type of DVD
2. It depends on the genre
3. It depends on the recording modes
4. It may also depend on the recording engineer, environment etc.

DVDs are of various types. They include video DVDs and DVD Audio discs.
DVD Audio generally have better quality audio, which may or may not be surround sound. If played through a good AV amp, or (if stereo) through a DAC via a digital link and then through an amp, these should sound very good. Many (most) DVD Audio discs also have a standard DVD Video layer as well, so they can be played on a standard DVD player. In that case the sound quality may still be OK, but probably not as good.

If the DVD is strictly a film, then the soundtrack may be recorded in a compressed mode, as most of the space on the DVD is taken up with video. How the compression is done can have an impact on the sound quality. For films this is often held not to be too important - as long as it's possible to have explosions coming from all directions!

You may also be thinking about Blu Ray, which is different yet again.

Video discs of various types can have better quality audio than CDs, but they may not have, depending on the intended market and other factors.

One good thing about DVD Audio is that it is possible to extract the audio tracks, and store them as data files, whereas with SACD which is roughly comparable in quality capability, it is all but impossible due to the protection and anti copying features put into the data.

Re point 4, I have DVDs of string quartets including video - I think by the Alban Berg quartet. Unfortunately these were made before hi-res video formats, so they're a bit disappointing to watch, and I think the sound quality might not be the greatest either. I don't think in practice there's a simple answer for any particular DVD. Various video media should be capable of at least acceptable results, both for sound quality and video, and Blu Ray discs should be capable of excellent results. These may not be realised in practice - though some are excellent - e.g the Glyndebourne Die Fledermaus Blu Ray.

[jayne lee wilson]

Just to add a couple of details to D2002's excellent post, the default standard for DVD-A is 24-bit/96khz, but it's capable of carrying up to 24/192 (as opposed to CD's 16/44.1) so potentially very high resolution - excellent sound.

Most classical recordings are now made at 24/96 (or 24/48 etc.) and then converted to CD/SACD for the marketed discs. But you can of course buy the 24-bit versions as downloads. DVD-A should have been the PCM replacement for CD, but daft mistakes in its marketing and development put paid to that...