Recording styles - quality - old and new

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 17869

    Recording styles - quality - old and new

    Originally posted by HighlandDougie View Post
    I don't even like the Mercury house style for recordings very much.
    Moving over from the Bargains thread I thought it might be worthwhile having a thread to discuss recording quality.

    I've been working my way through the Mercury box, and I like some recordings quite a lot, others less so. The label seemed to acquire a "legendary" status, which might now be questioned, or at least re-evaluated. Probably the first I knew about Mercury was the recording of the 1812 overture, which a few of my family bought. I think one challenge in those days was to keep the pickup in the grooves. That was slightly before the "hi-fi" thing took over, so high playing weights and auto-changers were order of the day.

    Stereo was just beginning to take over from mono around the late 50s, so that was a novelty. Different companies seemed to adopt different policies, perhaps based on ideology, as to how to record in stereo. With mono they could use one or more microphones, and then "simply" mix them all together to form a sort of blend. I'm sure it was more tricky than that, and there could well have been some phasing and level issues, but since there wasn't any need to maintain spatial cohesion there wasn't perhaps such a need for accurate phase/timing and levels which are needed in stereo or multi-channel recordings.

    With stereo there were several approaches, all with some theoretical and experimental justification. These would include:

    1. Widely spaced microphones.

    This wouldn't work well with only 2, but with 3 or 4 could give passable results. Possibly Mercury and RCA went this way.

    2. Dummy head approach.

    This was tried, but never really worked for loudspeaker listening. However some companies went partially this way, using microphones not too far apart, and separated by a baffle board. Spaced microphones will give time delays between the channels (also phase shifts) which can be used to locate sounds spatially.

    3. Co-incident microphone approach

    Blumlein at EMI had described an approach using coincident microphones, and in this method any phase information which could be used for location was essentially lost. However, the theory was that on playback, the spatial location of frontal sounds would be good, as the (perhaps subtle) accurately recorded level differences between the left and right channels would give good spatial localisation.

    4. Various modifications of the above

    While the general ambience could be captured using one or more of the stereo techniques, sometimes engineers wanted to spotlight a particular instrument, or group of instruments. They could do this using extra microphones. Quite possibly they would have used mono microphones in the early days, and mixed this in with the general sound. In some cases they may even have had to do this in real time, since in the very early days they might not have had multi-channel recorders. Later they would have recorded the spot mics on separate tracks, and done the mixing in the later stages of production. In order to keep spatial locations fairly accurate this mixing process required some adjustment in the mix to the left and right stereo channels. The simplest form was called pan-potting, and simply used slightly different levels of the mono microphone output to feed to the left and right channels in the recording. If the spot instruments were on the left, then the strength of the signal fed to the left channel would be stronger, and vice versa. Some companies may also have put timing/phase delays in as these can also be used to enhance the spatial localisation.

    Experiments done on human hearing showed that spatial location could be mostly determined by two parameters - the relative amplitude of the inputs to the left and right ears, and the relative phase of the inputs. These basic parameters have different effects at different frequencies in the audible spectrum.

    As recording engineers became more knowledgeable, some paid more attention to phase and timing delays, and used equipment to ensure that different microphones in the recording studio/hall would not produce cancellation or other phase effects.

    Decca decided on a fairly standard recording arrangement, at least for orchestral recordings, which they called the Decca Tree.

    Besides all this, different microphones sound different, and different companies used different kit.

    On top of this all, they were producing recordings for a new mass market of LP buyers, and the engineers were aware of limitations of the recording equipment, the media and the equipment used to reproduce the sounds. Mostly they did not want to have a very wide dynamic range as this would cause distortion in various parts of the system - the disc cutters, the playback devices (domestic record players), and lastly having a very wide dynamic range would cause problems with the amplifiers and loudspeakers, and would also tend to be considered anti-social!

    Some of these concerns still apply today, which is perhaps why some companies do produce recordings with a much wider dynamic range than others.

    There is a track on the Tchaikovsky 1812 CD (Mercury) which gives an explanation of how the recording of the cannons for the 1812 were made - CD9 in the box. This might at least show some of the problems which recording engineers faced, and no doubt continue to face.
  • Stunsworth
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 1553

    #2
    EMI sound = a seat in the circle
    Decca sound = a seat near the front of the stalls

    A gross simplification of course.
    Steve

    Comment

    • Petrushka
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 12013

      #3
      Without question my favourite sounding discs are those made by RCA Living Stereo in the mid to late 1950's featuring the Chicago SO/Reiner and Boston SO/Munch. Now, not far off 60 years old they can still astonish today. Much the same can be said for those Mercury discs I have especially those from LSO/Dorati. Has there ever been a more thrillingly recorded Stravinsky Firebird than that from this partnership in 1960? Listen also to a terrific Rite of Spring from a 1959 Everest disc (LSO/Goosens) with the most thrillingly recorded bass drum I've ever heard.

      How I wish modern discs sounded anything like as good as these.
      "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

      Comment

      • Eine Alpensinfonie
        Host
        • Nov 2010
        • 20538

        #4
        Originally posted by Stunsworth View Post
        EMI sound = a seat in the circle
        Decca sound = a seat near the front of the stalls

        A gross simplification of course.
        ...and not really true. Decca at its best sounded more spacious than any recording company - before or since.

        Comment

        • Ariosto

          #5
          Originally posted by Petrushka View Post
          Without question my favourite sounding discs are those made by RCA Living Stereo in the mid to late 1950's featuring the Chicago SO/Reiner and Boston SO/Munch.

          How I wish modern discs sounded anything like as good as these.
          I understand they were made using ribbon mics slung over the orchestra.

          I'm now using ribbon mics myself, as it happens.

          Comment

          • Tony Halstead
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 1717

            #6
            Decca at its best sounded more spacious than any recording company - before or since.
            So how do you rate NIMBUS and their 'Ambisonic' recordings?

            Comment

            • HighlandDougie
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 3010

              #7
              Originally posted by Petrushka View Post

              How I wish modern discs sounded anything like as good as these.
              While I have a lot of sympathy with Petrushka's viewpoint (and never cease to be amazed by recordings such as the Kletzki Sibelius 2 or Reiner's Pines of Rome), recording quality has surely advanced since the 1960s. The Dorati/LSO Mercury Firebird still leaps from ones speakers, especially in its SACD incarnation, but can it really be said to sound better than, to take a few examples, Yoel Levi on Glossa (SACD), Andrew Litton on BIS or Roth with Les Siecles? With the right producer, I would assert that modern recordings such as the Chandos Debussy Stephane Deneve set or BIS's Mark Wigglesworth Shostakovich Symphonies (1 to 3 spring to mind) or various Hyperion recordings both respect and preserve what is so good in those by now 50 year old recordings from Everest, RCA, Mercury and (for me especially) Decca but represent an advancement of them.

              Comment

              • cloughie
                Full Member
                • Dec 2011
                • 21995

                #8
                Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                ...and not really true. Decca at its best sounded more spacious than any recording company - before or since.
                I agree many Decca recordings of the late 50s and the 60s were stunning.

                Comment

                • PJPJ
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 1461

                  #9
                  Originally posted by waldhorn View Post
                  So how do you rate NIMBUS and their 'Ambisonic' recordings?
                  They sound a lot, lot better if they're decoded and played through a multichannel (four speaker) system.

                  Comment

                  • Stunsworth
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 1553

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                    ...and not really true. Decca at its best sounded more spacious than any recording company - before or since.
                    Perhaps front of the stalls was an exaggeration. What I was trying to say was that Decca had a more immediate sound than the 'house' sound of EMI. I had a spell of collecting early Decca LPs and the sound on them is almost universally first rate.
                    Steve

                    Comment

                    • PJPJ
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 1461

                      #11
                      Originally posted by HighlandDougie View Post
                      While I have a lot of sympathy with Petrushka's viewpoint (and never cease to be amazed by recordings such as the Kletzki Sibelius 2 or Reiner's Pines of Rome), recording quality has surely advanced since the 1960s. The Dorati/LSO Mercury Firebird still leaps from ones speakers, especially in its SACD incarnation, but can it really be said to sound better than, to take a few examples, Yoel Levi on Glossa (SACD), Andrew Litton on BIS or Roth with Les Siecles? With the right producer, I would assert that modern recordings such as the Chandos Debussy Stephane Deneve set or BIS's Mark Wigglesworth Shostakovich Symphonies (1 to 3 spring to mind) or various Hyperion recordings both respect and preserve what is so good in those by now 50 year old recordings from Everest, RCA, Mercury and (for me especially) Decca but represent an advancement of them.
                      Many of those recordings from the so-called golden age of recording still sound very good indeed, especially the Everests in my opinion, and especially if played in the original three channel mode through a better than CD medium where that applies.

                      However, many modern recordings like the ones you mention (and there are other labels, too, producing first-class sound) generally knock spots off even the very best of the golden oldies, and I include the best of Wilkie's for Reader's Digest, Lyrita and Decca. Wilkie recorded a lot of excellent performances very well; I suspect that pleasure is additive when both performance and sound are first-class, the overall quality being more than the sum of its parts.

                      A recent Chandos recording I got as a stereo 24 bit download is film music by Arthur Benjamin and Leighton Lucas. Compared with SACDs of the best of 1950s recordings, there's no doubt in my mind that the new recording is technically far superior. Today's excellent recordings may not have the added glow of nostalgia, but they will one day.

                      However, I'm not ditching all my old favourites, especially Bert Whyte's and Wilkie's any time soon. And how the hell did they do those edits so well without a computer screen?

                      Comment

                      • Ferretfancy
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 3487

                        #12
                        Something not mentioned so far is that the engineers in the early days of stereo had more time at their disposal to get the sound right, and were able to use excellent venues such as Kingsway Hall or the Sofiensaal in Vienna. I knew some Decca engineers who told me that a precise microphone set up was logged for every recording, and that in Vienna they had special floor markings and a calibrated measuring device for exact microphone positioning. Nowadays recording costs are so high that larger scale recordings involve multi-tracking for subsequent mix down, partly because techniques have changed, but also to save costly session time.

                        With regard to the Mercury box, I bought it even though this involved duplication in my collection. I've now managed to get all the Living Presence classicals that have been issued on CD. The selection in the box is interesting, although there are a few recordings that might have been omitted in favour of others. I would not miss the Civil War disc, or Gina Bachauer's not very impressive Gaspard de la Nuit. I would like to have seen the Dorati Swan Lake, even if it is mono, or the Bartok Wooden Prince.

                        By today's standards the recordings do vary, with the close up sound sometimes giving a nasty edge to the strings, but when the LPs first appeared they sounded sensational on modest equipment, which was what most of us could afford at the time. I don't entirely agree that modern recordings are consistently better, since their mixed down nature often fails to convey a real sense of the space in which the musicians perform. It's possible to have a very wide dynamic range with very low noise, but too often there is excessive reverberation giving a doctored quality. Performances often seem lifeless compared with some masters from the past, the feeling that there are too many edits,some of the younger musicians sound so much more committed on the concert platform than they do on disc. This of course raises all the arguments about so called live recordings compared to studio. I know that concert performances can be very good on CD, but there are still severe shortcomings in the sound from places like the Barbican.

                        All my comments are really about orchestral sound. There have always been fine recordings of instrumental and chamber music, you only have to look at the Eloquence catalogue to find marvellous stuff.

                        Comment

                        • Eine Alpensinfonie
                          Host
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 20538

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Stunsworth View Post
                          Perhaps front of the stalls was an exaggeration. What I was trying to say was that Decca had a more immediate sound than the 'house' sound of EMI. I had a spell of collecting early Decca LPs and the sound on them is almost universally first rate.
                          They did have a very different balance. In opera recordings, most companies favoured pushing the voices forward. Decca did not, and this was one of their great strengths. In my view, the first sign of Decca going "downhill" was their Solti/VPO recording of Die Zauberflote in 1971, with voices artificially close. However, this turned out to be a one-off, with a large number of "better" balanced recordings to follow.

                          Comment

                          • Dave2002
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 17869

                            #14
                            I didn't think Decca recordings were so good, and I preferred the warmer sound from some other companies. Then one day I heard some Decca recordings played on a good turntable using a Decca arm and cartridge, and the results were amazingly good. I wonder to what extent engineers made recordings taking into account the likely playback equipment.

                            In theory we should be able to do better now with modern equipment, so is it possible to optimise the sound from each company's "house" sound?

                            Comment

                            • pastoralguy
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 7625

                              #15
                              Am I correct in thinking that Decca used to master 'Ace of Clubs' lps to suit the low fi quality of the record players they were probably going to played on?

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