Pronunciation quibble

[jean]

...we also speak of SE-ville oranges, but the city of Se-VILLE

Gordon Jacobs didn't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2GRxir5C7w

It's not very funny, is it? I'd completely forgotten what it sounded like until I searched for it just now.

(I seem to remember that, inspired by this, Anthony Hopkins wrote William Tell goes to Hell of which he said 'the descent is both steeper and faster'.)

[LeMartinPecheur]

yes, definitely no 'r' in Giovanni.

Please ignore me if this has been raised before but isn't it the case that there's also no 'r' in the mispronounced version either?

Isn't it strictly a matter of the wrong a-sound, as in the classic north-south dispute about the pronunciation of Eng. bath. Northerner: "It's 'bath' (short 'a') - there's no 'r' in 'bath'" (Followed by a possible reference then to the more closely aligned N-S pronunciation of 'barmaid'.) But the phonetician - particularly a Southern English one - will say that there is no 'r' in barmaid either (unless you're Scots): the difference in pronunciation of 'bath' is only that between a long and a short 'a'.

[jean]

We can't do the International Phonetic Alphabet on these boards, and to talk of 'long' and 'short' vowels isn't very accurate either, so the 'r' gives a passable representation of the quality of the vowel it follows - in this environment it wouldn't be pronounced as 'r'.

(Unless of course you're Scots.)

[salymap]

But they do make me sick.

He made us sick, especially the way he spoke to RVW. Instead of Dr Vaughan Williams as most people addressed him, boss was sickeningly matey. I'd better say no more.

[amateur51]

That's those English RP speakers with their horror of sounding Northern, as I noted above. The people who say lahrtay when they're ordering coffee.

In both cases, the double consonant affects the vowel preceding it - and should be leaned on, to give it its full value.

I like that idea of leaning, jean - I shall try to remember that or if you prefer

Other beverages are available

[amateur51]

We can't do the International Phonetic Alphabet on these boards, and to talk of 'long' and 'short' vowels isn't very accurate either, so the 'r' gives a passable representation of the quality of the vowel it follows - in this environment it wouldn't be pronounced as 'r'.

(Unless of course you're Scots.)

(Or Welsh)

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The shocking case of the missing girl from Machynlleth is somehow made worse by the fact that some BBC reporters and broadcasters sho little respect for the pronunciation of the town's name. Radio 5's McCunnleth was about the worst. A bit of effort pays dividends.

[Bryn]

The shocking case of the missing girl from Machynlleth is somehow made worse by the fact that some BBC reporters and broadcasters sho[sic] little respect for the pronunciation of the town's name. Radio 5's McCunnleth was about the worst. A bit of effort pays dividends.

How did you miss McKinnleth, admittedly on Channel 4 rather not the BBC, and following directly on from a statement, (including the name of the town), by a local police officer from whom the reporter could surely have picked up a better approximation. Even Mahuntleth would be passable in comparison.

At least a some show they get their toungues round it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19811891

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...some BBC reporters and broadcasters sho[sic] little respect...

At least a some show they get their toungues [sic] round it:

Touché

[Bryn]

Touché

[amateur51]

How did you miss McKinnleth, admittedly on Channel 4 rather not the BBC, and following directly on from a statement, (including the name of the town), by a local police officer from whom the reporter could surely have picked up a better approximation. Even Mahuntleth would be passable in comparison.

At least a some show they get their toungues round it:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19811891

Unfortunately his linguistic proficiency doesn't impair his ability to ask daft questions of local people about how the child's disappearance has affected the local community

I hope that his stay in Wales teaches him that the Welsh word moron means carrot in English

[french frank]

Even Mahuntleth would be passable in comparison.

Yes, in fact for an English speaker, I'd regard that as acceptable. It indicates that ch is not pronounced k or tch, y is not pronounced as an i, and that ll is not an ordinary l (n is a dental consonant in that the tongue is placed against the teeth to articulate it, so that to a non-Welsh ear nll does sound a bit as though there's a t - also a dental - somewhere in the group).

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Yes, in fact for an English speaker, I'd regard that as acceptable. It indicates that ch is not pronounced k or tch, y is not pronounced as an i, and that ll is not an ordinary l (n is a dental consonant in that the tongue is placed against the teeth to articulate it, so that to a non-Welsh ear nll does sound a bit as though there's a t - also a dental - somewhere in the group).

Another way is to think of it is to place the tongue as for a single "L" and leave it there as you breath out. I was lucky in that my mother taught in North Wales during the WW2 evacuation, so became proficient in Welsh pronunciation.

[french frank]

Another way is to think of it is to place the tongue as for a single "L" and leave it there as you breath out. I was lucky in that my mother taught in North Wales during the WW2 evacuation, so became proficient in Welsh pronunciation.

Yes, that is better/correct. Ll is an aspirate consonate, like rh. English attempts such as Thlanethly and, of course, the famous Fluellen are only approximations of what people hear.

[Bryn]

In much of south-east Wales, "ll" is pronounced as "cl".