Pronunciation quibble

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

In much of south-east Wales, "ll" is pronounced as "cl".

That does surprise me. I was at a Welsh university with the lion's share of Welsh students coming from Glamorgan, but most of these were from Neath and the Welsh Valleys, rather than Cardiff. (All most of them ever talked about was the conductor of the Glamogan Youth Orchestra, Russell Sheppard.)

[Bryn]

That does surprise me. I was at a Welsh university with the lion's share of Welsh students coming from Glamorgan, but most of these were from Neath and the Welsh Valleys, rather than Cardiff. (All most of them ever talked about was the conductor of the Glamogan Youth Orchestra, Russell Sheppard.)

It's in and around Casnewydd that I have heard it most. I lived and worked in Caerdydd (East moors Steelworks) for a while in the '70s and noted how the pronunciation varied when in Gwent (now Monmouthshire again). The Welsh steelmakers at the Llanwern steelworks all called it Clanwern, for instance. I found the same form of pronunciation when visiting Blaenau Gwent.

[Flosshilde]

I went to the College of Librarianship Wales, based in Llanbadarn Fawr just outside Aberystwyth, & the double L was pronounced as cl, with a sort of throat-clearing sound.

I thoiught the pronunciation of Machynlleth on the Radio 4 news was reasonable, compared with the pronunciation of a couple of Scottish place names recently - Rob gave 'Beersden' for Bearsden, which is pronounced exactly ast its spelt (ie as if it's the home of a large furry animal), & in a R4 programme Banchory was pronounced with the 'ch' as in 'chew', instead of 'chaos'. I'm waiting to hear what they make of Milngavie

[french frank]

I went to the College of Librarianship Wales, based in Llanbadarn Fawr just outside Aberystwyth, & the double L was pronounced as cl, with a sort of throat-clearing sound.

That's more like it! It isn't really a cl - it sounds like cl when pronounced by some speakers because certain distinct sounds can merge into each other depending exactly on how the individual speaker is articulating them (it sounds rather how someone with a cleft palate would pronounce cl - strongly aspirated)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

(All most of them ever talked about was the conductor of the Glamogan Youth Orchestra, Russell Sheppard.)

Ah; but did they pronounce it "Russecl"?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... or "Russetl"?

Incidentally, is anyone else watching Huw Edwards' excellent History of Wales series? Could tell Andrew Marr a thing or forty - and his Welsh pronunciation is lovely: the way he says "Caernarfon" puts me in a swoon!

EDIT: Just finished watching Part Two: I didn't notice before, but his pronunciation of "ll" is closer to "cl" than "t(h)l", too.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

EDIT[/B]: Just finished watching Part Two: I didn't notice before, but his pronunciation of "ll" is closer to "cl" than "t(h)l", too.

But the point is that it isn't "cl", "th", "thl"; it's "ll" which is different from all of them, but doesn't occur in English. Incidentally, in that famous place on Anglesey with 58 letters, there are 4 L's in a row at one point.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

But the point is that it isn't "cl", "th", "thl"; it's "ll" which is different from all of them, but doesn't occur in English.

Yes, I know: that's why I wrote "closer to" and put the "h" in brackets! What did you expect me to write "his pronunciation of 'll' is closer to 'll' than 'll', too"?!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sorry!

[amateur51]

But the point is that it isn't "cl", "th", "thl"; it's "ll" which is different from all of them, but doesn't occur in English. Incidentally, in that famous place on Anglesey with 58 letters, there are 4 L's in a row at one point.

You stick to your guns, EA - you're quite right

[french frank]

Yes, I know: that's why I wrote "closer to" and put the "h" in brackets! What did you expect me to write "his pronunciation of 'll' is closer to 'll' than 'll', too"?!

Exactement! The reason why English people 'hear' a 'cl' or 'thl' is because we have no other way of describing it other than by the approximation.

Even we (!) can produce a perfect ll sound by voicing an l - as if we were about to say 'land', hold that sound and, keeping the tongue in exactly the same position, exhale hard (you won't, I think, be able to voice it and breathe out at the same time!). You will hear a sort of 'cl' sound - a sound which is more distinct with some Welsh speakers than others.

[amateur51]

Exactement! The reason why English people 'hear' a 'cl' or 'thl' is because we have no other way of describing it other than by the approximation.

Even we (!) can produce a perfect ll sound by voicing an l - as if we were about to say 'land', hold that sound and, keeping the tongue in exactly the same position, exhale hard (you won't, I think, be able to voice it and breathe out at the same time!). You will hear a sort of 'cl' sound - a sound which is more distinct with some Welsh speakers than others.

Well this Welsh-speaker gets no 'c' in his 'll' - and I come from a fairly English-dominated part of North-east Wales but was taught first by my parents and family and then by teachers mostly from South Wales.

[french frank]

Well this Welsh-speaker gets no 'c' in his 'll'

Yes, but you don't count as an English person, even if you do live in Willesden Green! Your ears are properly attuned to the sound. But you're hearing a sound that English ears aren't accustomed to which is why they 'hear' (in quotes) a 'cl' - or 'thl' - sound.

There's an ethnological point: I read about certain tribes who had no experience of pictures - flat representations - and couldn't 'see' what a photograph represented.

[Pabmusic]

Yes, but you don't count as an English person, even if you do live in Willesden Green! Your ears are properly attuned to the sound. But you're hearing a sound that English ears aren't accustomed to which is why they 'hear' (in quotes) a 'cl' - or 'thl' - sound.

There's an ethnological point: I read about certain tribes who had no experience of pictures - flat representations - and couldn't 'see' what a photograph represented.

The best I can ever do is a 'hl' sound - an aspirate ell. It's a good reminder of just how easily we learn the most difficult sounds very early, but can rarely learn another language as well again. My wife regularly pulls me up when I attempt Ilonggo (literally ""the language of the big-nosed people") because there are very few diphthongs in Philippine languages, but we have them in almost all our vowel sounds. So in 'ido' (dog) both the i and o are very short and hollow-sounding, but I can't get it.

[Nachtigall]

I've come late to this thread but I'm certainly one of those who have always found the prevalent mispronunciation of 'Giovanni' as a 4-syllable word with a long 'a' sound extremely tiresome. I also can't understand the refusal to pronounce the 'ch' (Scottish 'loch') sound in Bach. And there's a certain Classic fm presenter who habitually pronounces 'Rachmaninov' with a 'k' sound separating a succession of short 'a's, thus producing an ugly clatter of short syllables. Why can't he get it right?