Pronunciation quibble

[Nick Armstrong]

Would that be Reg Varney's brother?

[ahinton]

Shouldn't that be 'Moat-sart'? I seem to remember from my German lessons that 'z' is pronounced 'ts'.

That's not quite how Sarah Walker pronounces him!...

[PJPJ]

But was the programme otherwise a pronounced success? I think we should be told.

[verismissimo]

It's the standard English way of pronouncing it.

Or mis-pronouncing it.

[gurnemanz]

Shouldn't that be 'Moat-sart'? I seem to remember from my German lessons that 'z' is pronounced 'ts'.

Churchill referred to Naazzis with an English z sound (presumably as a deliberate show of contempt).

[LeMartinPecheur]

Or mis-pronouncing it.

Mispronouncing? Are we really no longer allowed to have English pronunciations of foreign personal and place names? If we pronounce one in a hitherto accepted English fashion are we really revealed even in this country as ignorant plebs? I hope not.

The departure of Peking and Bombay are two prominent examples. How long before we have to abandon Florence, Milan(*), Rome, Paris, Berlin and all the rest? And my particular 'favourite', Munich pron. Myoonik, where even most BBC announcers now affect a quasi-German final consonant sound, as if this is what Germans actually call the place

(*) Will we also have to start calling hat-suppliers miLAN(o)ers too? This form of political correctness will damage our understanding of our own language if we aren't careful, as well as making books of any age increasingly difficult to read.

[gurnemanz]

Mispronouncing? Are we really no longer allowed to have English pronunciations of foreign personal and place names? If we pronounce one in a hitherto accepted English fashion are we really revealed even in this country as ignorant plebs? I hope not.

The departure of Peking and Bombay are two prominent examples. How long before we have to abandon Florence, Milan(*), Rome, Paris, Berlin and all the rest? And my particular 'favourite', Munich pron. Myoonik, where even most BBC announcers now affect a quasi-German final consonant sound, as if this is what Germans actually call the place

(*) Will we also have to start calling hat-suppliers miLAN(o)ers too? This form of political correctness will damage our understanding of our own language if we aren't careful, as well as making books of any age increasingly difficult to read.

I would never dare to be dogmatic about insisting on an authentic pronunciation of foreign names, but what strikes me is that it is all rather random and inconsistent and there is often no standard accepted "English pronunciation". Many English speakers are happy call Bach "bark" with no attempt to get it right, others get close to authenticity. On the other hand, Beethoven and Mozart are nearly always pronounced more or less right. Some English speakers correctly call Strauss "shtrauss", others don't bother. The German Audi cars are correctly pronounced but the German razors spelt with the same vowel combination are mispronounced "brawn"

English speakers (unlike Germans) are not used to giving full value to unstressed vowels as in "Shoe b't" instead of "Schubairt" or Mendels'n for Mendelzooohn... likewise Schum'n. .

[jean]

What irritiates me is that English RP speakers can't (apparently) bear to say anything they feel might stigmatise them as Northern.

Hence Gee-oh-var-nee. And numerous other unnecessarily long as that just sound like misplaced affectations to me.

[Panjandrum]

Or mis-pronouncing it.

I think what some have failed to grasp is that those who say Gee-oh-var-nee think they are giving the correct pronunciation. Same goes for Gee-oh-sepp-ee.

In both instances, the correct Italian pronunciation is so much more elegant. It's the presence of the consecutive vowels in Italian which throws English speakers. People seem to think that you need to make two syllables out of "Gio" when actually the "i" (or an "e" when it follows a consonant like "g" or "c") softens the consonant, which in the case of "g" makes it sound like the English "j"; hence "Jo'varni" should be the correct pronunciation.

Personally, I have no problem with people who pronounce names which are the same in another language, as if they were English (e.g. Richard as in Strauss or Wagner). What annoys is when we get ham-fisted attempts juxtaposed with cod foreign accents (a certain female presenter whose name we are forbidden to mention comes to mind) which are then wrong.

[Beef Oven]

I think what some have failed to grasp is that those who say Gee-oh-var-nee think they are giving the correct pronunciation. Same goes for Gee-oh-sepp-ee.

In both instances, the correct Italian pronunciation is so much more elegant. It's the presence of the consecutive vowels in Italian which throws English speakers. People seem to think that you need to make two syllables out of "Gio" when actually the "i" (or an "e" when it follows a consonant like "g" or "c") softens the consonant, which in the case of "g" makes it sound like the English "j"; hence "Jo'varni" should be the correct pronunciation.

Personally, I have no problem with people who pronounce names which are the same in another language, as if they were English (e.g. Richard as in Strauss or Wagner). What annoys is when we get ham-fisted attempts juxtaposed with cod foreign accents (a certain female presenter whose name we are forbidden to mention comes to mind) which are then wrong.

You are right, we shouldn't make two syllables from 'Gio' but the vowel sound includes a subtle souinding 'i' and srtonger '0', they are run together. Italian was heard a lot in my home on account of an Italian mother!

[Northender]

Mispronouncing? Are we really no longer allowed to have English pronunciations of foreign personal and place names? If we pronounce one in a hitherto accepted English fashion are we really revealed even in this country as ignorant plebs? I hope not.

The departure of Peking and Bombay are two prominent examples. How long before we have to abandon Florence, Milan(*), Rome, Paris, Berlin and all the rest? And my particular 'favourite', Munich pron. Myoonik, where even most BBC announcers now affect a quasi-German final consonant sound, as if this is what Germans actually call the place

(*) Will we also have to start calling hat-suppliers miLAN(o)ers too? This form of political correctness will damage our understanding of our own language if we aren't careful, as well as making books of any age increasingly difficult to read.

Milanese (pronounced Millerknees, Millerkneezy, Melarnazy, take your pick)?

[Beef Oven]

Milanese (pronounced Millerknees, Millerkneezy, Melarnazy, take your pick)?

Some years ago, in a restaurant, I heard a very well-spoken Englishman order, in his best toffee-nosed, elongated-vowel English accent, a bottle of 'Pinot Grigio'!

Wonderful!

I still have to stop myself from pronouncing it this way

[verismissimo]

e.g. Richard as in Strauss or Wagner

Very hard for non-German-speaking Brits, as you imply, Panjandrum.

The German R sound for a start, then the CH in the middle from the back of the throat. Even the D sounds as a T.

[french frank]

I still have to stop myself from pronouncing it this way

I'm the same with Sye-beelius. Once heard, it sounds credible ...

But I think there's a skill - for broadcasters - in pitching the pronunciation somewhere between the accurate 'native' pronunciation and the 'English' equivalent using our phonetic system and intonation. The main point is not to sound like an Italian but to be comprehensible to listeners, and if you go too far either way as often as not you aren't. Modify that with some accepted anglicised forms and, well, that's it really

[amateur51]

I'm the same with Sye-beelius. Once heard, it sounds credible ...

But I think there's a skill - for broadcasters - in pitching the pronunciation somewhere between the accurate 'native' pronunciation and the 'English' equivalent using our phonetic system and intonation. The main point is not to sound like an Italian but to be comprehensible to listeners, and if you go too far either way as often as not you aren't. Modify that with some accepted anglicised forms and, well, that's it really

Accepted anglicised forms, you say?

My mother's intensely Welsh intensely ancient relatives used to pronounce Sibelius as 'Sy-Bel - Ay - Us' with the stress on the Ay.

As they were inordinately fond of the Finnish maestro and his music ('Finlandia' was turned into a hymn-tune, y'know) it became quite difficult for me to hear his name pronounced in any other way