Bruckner 9 BPO/Rattle - the 4 Movement Recording

[scottycelt]

I have a lot of sympathy with the 'purists' who take the incomplete work as it is ... and I disagree with those who claim the symphony is somehow 'inferior' because it is incomplete ... even if by sheer luck, the peaceful ( and still suitably majestic) ending to the third movement surely crowns it as a towering masterpiece in its own right.

Yet, it is quite a shock (wonderful surprise) to hear those incredibly forward-looking sketches for the Finale, from the the pen of a sick, dying man ... these are just too powerful to ignore and some sort of 'completion' is the only way to bring them to the attention of concertgoers.

Let's have both 'complete' and incomplete versions as a regular choice!

[Barbirollians]

I look forward to hearing it but I fear I shall find it no more convincing than the Newbould completion of the Unfinished .

[amateur51]

I have a lot of sympathy with the 'purists' who take the incomplete work as it is ... and I disagree with those who claim the symphony is somehow 'inferior' because it is incomplete ... even if by sheer luck, the peaceful ( and still suitably majestic) ending to the third movement surely crowns it as a towering masterpiece in its own right.

Yet, it is quite a shock (wonderful surprise) to hear those incredibly forward-looking sketches for the Finale, from the the pen of a sick, dying man ... these are just too powerful to ignore and some sort of 'completion' is the only way to bring them to the attention of concertgoers.

Let's have both 'complete' and incomplete versions as a regular choice!

Blimey, scotty!

[Barbirollians]

I have only heard it once and there is of course the shock of the new but it made more of an impression on me than I expected .

Returningto the record tonight I somehow found myself looking through my versions and playing the live Barbirolli Prom account from 1966 instead . What a thrilling reading that is albeit in ropey sound . A significantly quicker Adagio than many but I rather like it .

Barbirolli was a great Bruckner conductor in my opinion . The BBC Legends recordings have us in their debt as he was never invited to record any in the studio .

[jayne lee wilson]

Progress report...

Lacking much listening (or posting) time recently (both Mum and I in poor health again...) I've now heard the new finale twice.

First time - doubts about any memorable ideas, better sense of musical flow compared to earlier versions, inconclusive...
Second hearing - I began to thrill to the piece, tears in my eyes, this could be truly significant... Is the pause just before the coda, after the 1st movement themes (unison D minor climax + 4-note rising motif driving the movement's later stages) a little too abrupt? Magnificent coda! Very ending, abrupt, but AB often did this - 2nd & 6th Symphonies, even in the 5th after the chorale coda....

Petrushka's quite right about the sound - possibly the best we've had from the difficult Philharmonie.

To be continued...

[Bryn]

A significantly quicker Adagio than many but I rather like it.

Nowhere near a quick as Norrington though, I bet. He really shows what he thinks of the dirge school of Bruckner adagio conducing. I just wish he's gone for all four movements, rather then settling for just the bleeding chunk of the first three 'completed' ones.

[ahinton]

Nowhere near a quick as Norrington though, I bet. He really shows what he thinks of the dirge school of Bruckner adagio conducing. I just wish he's gone for all four movements, rather then settling for just the bleeding chunk of the first three 'completed' ones.

Try as I might, I simply cannot warm to Mr Norrington in characteristically upbeat mode trying to perform Bruckner as though Haydn had lived to the ripe old age of 150+ and was still writing symphonies, but I'm 100% behind your description of the first three movements on their own as a "bleeding chunk", as which any future attempt to perform them as though they're symphonically self-sufficient should be regarded by all listeners. Perfect the results on the Rattle recording may not quite be (I'm referring to the edition, not the performance, in so saying), but they're pretty close - so much so, if fact, that the attitude of the dissenters astonishes me! OK, I know that we've all had to put up with the truncated version for all our lives, but what kind of excuse is that for becoming "used" to it as "the way that it should be played"?! Grrr!!!

[Roehre]

Petrushka's quite right about the sound - possibly the best we've had from the difficult Philharmonie.

I beg to differ. For me this recording is too woolly, too saturated, IMO due to too much prominence of the brass.
I know there are 8 horns, but nevertheless. But this doesn't diminish the artistic value of this performance ofcourse.

[Roehre]

OK, I know that we've all had to put up with the truncated version for all our lives, but what kind of excuse is that for becoming "used" to it as "the way that it should be played"?!

In my case certainly not quite, ever since I attended the european premiere of the Carraghan version in April 1985, which was released on LP shortly afterwards, and the CD release of the same version accompanied by the torso as it stands.

And to put things in perspective, Wyn Morris' Mahler 10 [Philips] was in 1974 only the second recording of any performing version (Ormandy's 1966 recording the very first one [CBS]). Now 10 seems to be omnipresent.

[Barbirollians]

Bryn - Barbirolli's Adagio is dead on 20 minutes - my other versions are all between 23-26 .

[Bryn]

Bryn - Barbirolli's Adagio is dead on 20 minutes - my other versions are all between 23-26 .

Hmm, only 1' 20" longer than Norrington's. I must check the Barbirolli out. Looks like he may have been leading the way.

[Ah, just got the Barbirolli (BBC Legends - RAH 29 July 1966) down from the shelf. His actual timing in that performance is 20' 28". Which is when the applause cuts in to obscure the dying reverberation of the final chord. So that's 2' 16" slower than RN's (which also has applause which I initially forgot to take into consideration).]

[ahinton]

In my case certainly not quite, ever since I attended the european premiere of the Carraghan version in April 1985, which was released on LP shortly afterwards, and the CD release of the same version accompanied by the torso as it stands.

Sorry - and point taken; I should of course have added the words "until relatively recently", since I am aware not only of this but of earlier performances of earlier versions by the four-man team and also of Sébastien Letocart's more recent version.

[Barbirollians]

Gracious I was 28 seconds out - how terrible

Pedantry apart it is significantly quicker than the other performances I have and unlike Norrington it does not lose the baby with the bathwater .

[jayne lee wilson]

I beg to differ. For me this recording is too woolly, too saturated, IMO due to too much prominence of the brass.
I know there are 8 horns, but nevertheless. But this doesn't diminish the artistic value of this performance ofcourse.

How can over-prominence of the brass be the cause of a 'woolly' recording?

Ok that's picking nits, but really all we are describing here are system differences. In this room it sounds spacious (especially in quieter passages for strings alone), warm side of neutral, well-balanced with clear, well-placed winds and powerful but not over-bearing brass. (Better than the recent Brahms/Schoenberg disc which erred on the side of warmth and "thickness", whilst remaining enjoyable).
Ian Julier in the June IRR review of this 9th refers to the Berliners' sustaining a "burnished but dark tone" of "weight and transparency" with "inner voices...tellingly revealed"...

I'm deeply impressed by the sheer freshness of the piece, a sense of Bruckner still questing on, seeking new discoveries...
after a third, very positive, experience with this latest finale I intend to play it alone several more times before joining up the dots with the whole piece...

[antongould]

...............
I'm deeply impressed by the sheer freshness of the piece, a sense of Bruckner still questing on, seeking new discoveries...
...

I totally agree.