Bleeding chunks ?

[Barbirollians]

Most generally used in respect of orchestral pieces of Wagner taken out and played in a concert context . I note in IRR this month there is a reference in the Jarvi Wagner Symphony review as to how they have disappeared from concerts perhaps as a result of sneering at hearing Wagner out of context.

I think this is rather a shame . There has been some great Wagner conducting of bleeding chunks - Boult's 1970s recordings come to mind and without bleeding chunks how are novices going to get to know his music ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I think this is rather a shame . There has been some great Wagner conducting of bleeding chunks - Boult's 1970s recordings come to mind and without bleeding chunks how are novices going to get to know his music ?

I agree: this was what started my passion for Wagner - LPs of "selections" by Szell, Kubelik and (later) Furtwängler. Karajan's final Wagner performances were of these "chunks" - his disc including the Tristan "Liebestod" with Jessye Norman is tremendous.

[Ferretfancy]

I've just located and ordered a bleeding chunks Wagner disc by the Detroit SO and Paray, and I'm really looking forward to it. It includes the Siegfried Idyll,and knowing Paray it will probably be one of the fastest on record!

I absolutely agree that there have been some marvellous examples of this kind, Boult has already been mentioned, and Klemperer did some fine versions in the early days of stereo. For all his little ways, Stokey made some nice ones too.

[Petrushka]

I've just located and ordered a bleeding chunks Wagner disc by the Detroit SO and Paray, and I'm really looking forward to it. It includes the Siegfried Idyll,and knowing Paray it will probably be one of the fastest on record!

I absolutely agree that there have been some marvellous examples of this kind, Boult has already been mentioned, and Klemperer did some fine versions in the early days of stereo. For all his little ways, Stokey made some nice ones too.

FF, have you got a link for the Paray disc? The very first classical LP I ever had (Fontana SFL14051) included a Dutchman Overture, Meistersinger and Gotterdammerung excerpts from Paray and the Detroit SO. I badgered my mother to get it for my 16th birthday in June 1970 and the rest, as they say, is history.

[cloughie]

FF, have you got a link for the Paray disc? The very first classical LP I ever had (Fontana SFL14051) included a Dutchman Overture, Meistersinger and Gotterdammerung excerpts from Paray and the Detroit SO. I badgered my mother to get it for my 16th birthday in June 1970 and the rest, as they say, is history.

Wasn't that a mix of Paray and Dorati - all good! If it is true that wagner's Orchestral bits are not done in orchestral concerts then it is a shame as they are an example of the few acceptable bleeding chunks around. What is unacceptable is the concerto/symphony/orchestral movement picking now the norm on R3 and CFM generally!

[Nick Armstrong]

If I need pepping up, I will often listen to the performance of the Lohengrin 3. Akt: Vorspiel on this disc from the Berlin Phil under Maazel

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lorin-Maazel...6602265&sr=1-4

[Pabmusic]

...If it is true that wagner's Orchestral bits are not done in orchestral concerts then it is a shame as they are an example of the few acceptable bleeding chunks around...

I think 'bleeding chunks' is not right - I'm sure it is the best term to describe bits of recorded opera taken from complete sets and issued on 'highlights' discs (hence the blood, as they'd been carved out of the whole). The concert versions of bits from Wagner, or anyone else's larger works, were usually published separately in the days when people couldn't download a recording - or even buy one. They were often re-scored in some way, and adapted to concert use. Humperdinck produced at least some of the Wagner standards, others were done by Wagner disciples such as Felix Mottl. They make good concert items still today, but there's a dreadful arrogant snobbishness nowadays that says, "If you want to hear Wagner, the only way is to listen to a compete opera. If you want to hear 'bleeding chunks', you're obviously not a serious music-lover".

This attitude has affected concert planners, and it has deepened the rift between 'classical' music and the general public. I'm not in favour of 'dumbing down', or making R3 into CFM. I'd just like to see many of the old warhorses treated seriously again. Who will programme the overture to Zampa?

[mercia]

so can this opinion/attitude to "bleeding chunks" apply to other composers, or only Wagner? e.g. could a good way into Mahler symphonies be through hearing the number 5 Adagietto? Nessun Dorma a good way into Puccini ?


EDIT - the useful thing about Wagner is that once you've heard (for example) the overture to Mastersingers you've heard all the basic musical material of the whole opera (slight exaggeration but not far off). I probably better dive for cover now.

[Pabmusic]

s...EDIT - the useful thing about Wagner is that once you've heard (for example) the overture to Mastersingers you've heard all the basic musical material of the whole opera (slight exaggeration but not far off). I probably better dive for cover now.

You are obviously an experienced Wagnerian.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

so can this opinion/attitude to "bleeding chunks" apply to other composers, or only Wagner? e.g. could a good way into Mahler symphonies be through hearing the number 5 Adagietto? Nessun Dorma a good way into Puccini?

That's how it worked for me when I started spending my pocket money (50p a week to start with!) in the early '70s - there were plenty of "Greatest Hits of ... " available from Woolies and Boots. The CBS Greatest Hits of Prokofiev had an excellent complete Classical Symphony and Peter & the Wolf - without narration - under Bernstein, and the complete Kijé Suite under Ormandy and The Greatest Hits of Tchaikovsky Vol2 had Entremont's First Piano Concerto (again with Bernstein) complete on one side. 'Twas a short step thence onto other complete works on MfP, CfP, DECCA Eclipse etc.

The Greatest Hits of Puccini was made up completely of orchestral arrangements by André Kostelenitz: hearing some singers nowadays, this might be a practice worth restoring!

[Ferretfancy]

FF, have you got a link for the Paray disc? The very first classical LP I ever had (Fontana SFL14051) included a Dutchman Overture, Meistersinger and Gotterdammerung excerpts from Paray and the Detroit SO. I badgered my mother to get it for my 16th birthday in June 1970 and the rest, as they say, is history.

Petrushka

I don't remember the Fontana LP, but there was some great stuff on that label. This will make me a real anorak, but I have been collecting Mercury recordings with a view to getting the complete list, a bit of a mad scheme! I'm nearly at the end of my search, and the Paray Wagner disc seems to be particularly elusive. I finally tracked it down on Amazon from EliteDigitalUK, but I think it was the last copy, and pricey, but I took the plunge and it's on it's way.
The other items on your Fontana LP were probably conducted by Dorati on another Mercury in very good sound. If you decide to search Amazon,don't look for Mercury, but search under Paray. Good luck!

[salymap]

I am sure there used to be BCs of Berlioz' Damnation of Faust and also Wagner Mastersingers played at concerts a lot. They were thought of as 'excerpts'.

[umslopogaas]

#11 Ferretfancy, re. Mercury recordings, have you got a copy of 'Rare Classical Record Price Guide 2006'? It is now very out of date on prices, but it has a list of all the English Mercury (AMS) issues, cross referenced to the American (SR) ones. Are you collecting the AMS or SR series? The SR series is much larger, if you've got all those I am MOST envious! There are 144 LPs in the AMS series.

We anoraks know the truth of course: the anorak is a most useful garment. I never go out without one.

[mercia]

but of course we don't like Radio 3 playing "bleeding chunks", "excerpts" - (call them what you will) - do we?

[Ferretfancy]

umslopogaas,

Thanks for that tally! i have collected 120 so far, and i'm waiting for another 3. There's also " Spirit of '76" with the Eastman Winds, and probably the New Jersey Light Artillery,which was probably made at the same time as their American Civil war recording -- I'm not sure if I need go back to the War of Independence !

I'll certainly try to get a copy of the Rare Classical Record Price Guide, thanks for that valuable tip. As for anoraks, I'm off to the Lakes soon, waterproof trews as well !

Bws.
Ferret