Great Recordings of 20th C?

[mathias broucek]

All of these recordings stem from exactly 5 (=five) recording companies.
I cannot imagine that the greatest recordings of the 20th C were all made by these (though many obviously are)

One of the great difficulties here is around availability. Posters who have already attempted lists (and published lists in magazines etc) have tended to go for mainstream, well-known and widely available recordings. This is understandable from a practical perspective and there is (often but not always) a reason such recordings are well-known.

However there is some interesting material that is unofficial and/or hard-to-find. For example there are live Carlos Kleiber discs that - for me at least - trump the better-known DG versions of the same works. However finding them can involve good luck and/or silly money.

Even amongst official material it's hard for smaller labels to get noticed. For example, I and others find Jochum's 1986 RCO Bruckner 5 on Tahrato be one of THE great Bruckner recordings but it's much less well known than Bruckner recordings from Karajan/DG, Bohm/Decca etc.

And then even on the "major" labels, there are Cinderella recordings - for example the Jochum/LPO and Celi/MPO Brahms cycles on EMI are stunningly good yet not in wide circulation.

[silvestrione]

Yes with my list I tried for 20 recordings where there would be a wide measure of agreement. Towards the bottom they are probably more debatable. I excluded, as not in the category we were dealing with, off-air recordings put onto CD much later. I do prefer the live Kleiber in everything except the sound!

If these performances you mention are really that good, some of the greatest ever, why are they not in wide circulation? The criterion used at the start of the thread (never out of the catalogue) is relevant here, though only as one factor of course.

[mathias broucek]

If these performances you mention are really that good, some of the greatest ever, why are they not in wide circulation? The criterion used at the start of the thread (never out of the catalogue) is relevant here, though only as one factor of course.

I'd forgotten the "never out of the catalogue" criterion.

The Jochum Tahra isn't that famous because the label is less well-known, it was out of the catalogue for a time, it's not that cheap and there are alternatives from EMI and DG which are stronger brands. There may also be confusion with his 1964 RCO recording (good, but less good!). The Tahra was v well reviewed (for example http://www.musicweb-international.co...bruch5joch.htm ) but Grammo only gave it 3/4 of a (positive) column.

The Jochum EMI Brahms was well-received at the time and widely available on Eminence. On CD it's been sporadically available and the downloads are horribly over-priced.

The Munich/Celi Brahms originally came in a very expensive (£100+ boxed set). Grammophone paid little attention and reivews were mixed. The "narrative" about the EMI/Munich material became about some extremely beautiful but very slow performances (Tchaik 6, La Mer, Concerto for Orchestra) and the Bruckner. It later became possible to get "towfers" of Brahms 1 + Requiem and 2-4 (the latter being the one to go for IMHO) but these were not easy to find in the shops. It's now available for £25-30 in a large boxed set with Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Schumann etc. which is worth buying just for the Beethoven 2, Brahms 4 and Haydn 92! See Musicweb for some comments on the Brahms http://www.musicweb-international.co...ibeethoven.htm

[silvestrione]

Hmmm...thoughtful reviews, thanks for those links.

I remember when Celi was suddenly invited to conduct again in London (LSO? or LPO? not sure) it was on R3 and the first item was Verdi's Force of Destiny overture, and I was almost exhausted just by the end of that! Must have been, because I can't remember what was on the rest of the preogramme.

Back to the thread: not sure Celi can qualify at all...he didn't believe in recordings, and didn't make any! (Or perhaps there were some early ones?)

[umslopogaas]

#19 silvestrione, Celibidache did make at least two recordings. I've got one, it is from very early in the LP era, Decca LXT 2558, he conducts the LPO in Mozart symphony 25, with Bohm conducting the VPO in symphony 36 on the other side.

According to Norman Lebrecht ('Maestros, Masterpieces and Madness'), "Sergiu Celibidache, who deputised in Berlin during Furtwangler's denazification, found Decca so uncongenial that, after a Tchaikovsky Fifth with the London Philharmonic, he refused to make another sound recording so long as he lived."

Sounds as if we have to blame Decca, but I wouldnt be too harsh, they gave us many splendid recordings.

And Lebrecht is not correct: the Tchaikovsky Fifth was issued just before the Mozart and has the number LXT 2545, so Decca did get one more recording out of him.

[Gordon]

Thanks to all for their contributions, fascinating. I have tried to make a list and have failed miserably to agree with myself!!

#19 silvestrione, Celibidache did make at least two recordings. I've got one, it is from very early in the LP era, Decca LXT 2558, he conducts the LPO in Mozart symphony 25, with Bohm conducting the VPO in symphony 36 on the other side.

According to Norman Lebrecht ('Maestros, Masterpieces and Madness'), "Sergiu Celibidache, who deputised in Berlin during Furtwangler's denazification, found Decca so uncongenial that, after a Tchaikovsky Fifth with the London Philharmonic, he refused to make another sound recording so long as he lived."

Sounds as if we have to blame Decca, but I wouldnt be too harsh, they gave us many splendid recordings.

And Lebrecht is not correct: the Tchaikovsky Fifth was issued just before the Mozart and has the number LXT 2545, so Decca did get one more recording out of him.

Here is the Decca discography data for Celi: he made only a few records for them in London, possibly related to concert dates. The falling out with Decca, if there was one, might just as well been about rehearsal time, he was very demanding. The three records he did make with the LPO [all available on a Membran 10CD set of Celi] were made between April 1948 and July 1949 with quite a few remakes. The Nutcracker wasn't issued on 78 or LP, it seems, perhaps again because he was so fussy. I suspect that Decca was fed up as well! Note that the eartlier LP catalogue number was issued after the later one but the 78s were the reverse!

Pr: Victor Olof Eng: Kenneth Wilkinson
9 Apr, four sides [12170-73] re-made 29 Dec 1948 Kingsway Hall
London Philharmonic Orchestra, Sergiu Celibidache
MOZART Symphony No.25 in G minor K183 AR12170-75
(Jly49) AK2197-99; (Dec49) T5141-43 = LA97,
(Jan51) LXT2558; (Jly51) LLP88, (Jun01) Urania URN22162.

Pr: Victor Olof Eng: Kenneth Wilkinson
5,6&9 Jly 1948 Kingsway Hall
London Philharmonic Orchestra, Sergiu Celibidache
TCHAIKOVSKY Symphony No.5 in E minor Op.64 AR12485-96
(Jan49) AK2036-41; (c50) T5319-24 = LA136,
(May51) LXT2545; (Apr51) LLP168, (Nov90) 425 958.2DM.

Pr: Victor Olof Eng: Kenneth Wilkinson
28-29 Dec 1948 Kingsway Hall
three sides [13115/17/18] re-made 23 Jly 1949
London Philharmonic Orchestra, Sergiu Celibidache
TCHAIKOVSKY The Nutcracker : suite Op.71a AR13113-18
Unpublished on 78rpm: (nr ’49) AK2148-50; T5094-96 = LA86
and (nr Jun49) LPS117, advertised but evidently withdrawn
for the re-makes, which eventually appeared as
(Jly79) ECM836, (Nov90) 425 958.2DM.

[silvestrione]

[I]

Richter for Bach - vade retro, Satanas!

Careful Vinteuil: you know enthusiasts of HIPP are sometimes accused of dogma and fanaticism! A playful comment no doubt, but susceptible to a Freudian interpretation.

[silvestrione]

Thanks for that fascinating info, Gordon

[martin_opera]

Could easily just do operas:

Bluebeard's Castle - Kertsz
Carmen - Abbado
Fidelio - Bernstein
Norma - Serafin (1963)
I Puritani - Bonynge
Gloriana - Mackerras
Lucia di Lammermoor - Serafin
Merry Widow - Gardiner
Cosi Fan Tutte - von Karajan
Don Giovanni - Giulini
Figaro - Jacobs
Zauberflote - Christie
Boheme - von Karajan
Butterfly - Barbirolli
Tosca - De Sebata
Turandot - Mehta
L'Italiana in Algieri - Abbado
Il Barbiere di Siviglia - Marriner
Der Rosenkavalier - Solti
Salome - Sinopoli
Aida - Muti
Ballo - Davis
Don Carlo - von Karajan
Falstaff - von Karajan
Traviata - Kleiber
Ring - Solti
Tristan - Bernstein

...oh hang on...

[makropulos]

Could easily just do operas:

Bluebeard's Castle - Kertsz
Carmen - Abbado
Fidelio - Bernstein
Norma - Serafin (1963)
I Puritani - Bonynge
Gloriana - Mackerras
Lucia di Lammermoor - Serafin
Merry Widow - Gardiner
Cosi Fan Tutte - von Karajan
Don Giovanni - Giulini
Figaro - Jacobs
Zauberflote - Christie
Boheme - von Karajan
Butterfly - Barbirolli
Tosca - De Sebata
Turandot - Mehta
L'Italiana in Algieri - Abbado
Il Barbiere di Siviglia - Marriner
Der Rosenkavalier - Solti
Salome - Sinopoli
Aida - Muti
Ballo - Davis
Don Carlo - von Karajan
Falstaff - von Karajan
Traviata - Kleiber
Ring - Solti
Tristan - Bernstein

...oh hang on...

What a nice idea, and a very nice list. But yes, it runs into the same sort of trouble. I tried limiting it just to operas composed in the 20th century, and it's still ridiculous...here are 20 anyway. But what's missing is pretty startling:

Bartók - Bluebeard's Castle (Kertész, Decca)
Britten - Billy Budd (Britten, Decca)
Britten - Gloriana (Mackerras, Decca)
Delius - Village Romeo and Juliet (Meredith Davies, EMI)
Dvorak - Rusalka (Chalabala, Supraphon)
Janacek - Katya (Mackerras, Decca)
Janacek - Makropulos Affair (Mackerras, Decca)
Janacek - From the House of the Dead (Mackerras, Decca)
Janacek - Cunning Little Vixen (Gregor, Supraphon)
Janacek - Fate [Osud] (Mackerras, EMI/Chandos)
Lehár - Lustige Witwe (Matacic, EMI)
Poulenc - Dialogues des Carmélites (Dervaux, EMI)
Poulenc - Mamelles de Tirésias (Cluytens, EMI)
Prokofiev - War and Peace (Lloyd-Jones, ENO, Oriel Music Trust, or Melik-Pashayev, Melodiya)
Puccini - Turandot (Leinsdorf, RCA or Mehta, Decca)
Rimsky - Golden Cockerel (Svetlanov, Melodiya)
Strauss - Ariadne (Kempe, EMI)
Strauss - Elektra (Böhm, DG DVD)
Strauss - Rosenkavalier (Erich Kleiber, Decca, or Solti, Decca, or Carlos Kleiber, DG DVD)
Vaughan WIlliams - Pilgrim's Progress (Boult, EMI)